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Thread: P312 subclades at LivingDNA

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    P312 subclades at LivingDNA

    My father tested at LivingDNA and was placed on P312. I did a test on 23andMe and was placed on P311. Based on what I read, 23andMe doesn't test P312, only the subclades L21 and U152; since I am negative for those, I got bumped "upwards" to P311. That leaves out DF27, however, which 23andMe also doesn't test. Does anyone know if LivingDNA tests DF27? Given the amount of SNPs they cover I'd expect so, but their raw data for Y-DNA only gives me a list of positive SNPs so I can't verify it.

    If not, what test would you recommend to see if I belong in DF27? I don't see the point in taking FTDNA's Big-Y given the price and that I already know I'm at least on P312.

    I'm new at this and would welcome any advice. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decimo View Post
    My father tested at LivingDNA and was placed on P312. I did a test on 23andMe and was placed on P311. Based on what I read, 23andMe doesn't test P312, only the subclades L21 and U152; since I am negative for those, I got bumped "upwards" to P311. That leaves out DF27, however, which 23andMe also doesn't test. Does anyone know if LivingDNA tests DF27? Given the amount of SNPs they cover I'd expect so, but their raw data for Y-DNA only gives me a list of positive SNPs so I can't verify it.

    If not, what test would you recommend to see if I belong in DF27? I don't see the point in taking FTDNA's Big-Y given the price and that I already know I'm at least on P312.

    I'm new at this and would welcome any advice. Thank you.
    L21, U152 and DF27 are not the only subclades of P312, just the most common. There are three others that are less numerous, but by no means rare: DF19, DF99 and L238, as well as a few others that are fairly rare.

    I have no experience with LivingDNA or 23andme, so can't comment on what you can test for at either of them, but you can test for the six main P312 subclades at FTDNA without doing the Big Y. I believe you would probably have to first do the basic YGNA STR test first. An individual test for DF27 or L238 costs $49 each, the others $39 each. There is also a R-M343 backbone test which tests for at least the six most common listed above, at a cost of around $100. However the STR panel is likely to give you an idea of which subclade is the most likely.

    I would be surprised if 23andme does not test for P312, as it is the most common marker in Europe.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 08-21-2020 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    L21, U152 and DF27 are not the only subclades of P312, just the most common. There are three others that are less numerous, but by no means rare: DF19, DF99 and L238, as well as a few others that are fairly rare.
    Thank you for explaining that. I guess I'll think about ordering a basic Y-12 test from FTDNA and then upgrading for the SNPs I need. First I'll try contacting LDNA to confirm whether they test those subclades or not. Considering they test around 22500 Y-DNA SNPs (opposed to 23andMe's ~4000), I'd expect that to be the case.

    I would be surprised if 23andme does not test for P312, as it is the most common marker in Europe.
    Yes, it's strange, but they really don't test for it:

    Screen Shot 2020-08-21 at 18.42.34.png

    Perhaps they assumed most of their costumers would fall on either L21 or U152 so they could "skip" P312. Who knows...
    Last edited by Decimo; 08-21-2020 at 06:22 PM.

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    If you are lucky enough to have a SNP that's tested on their chip, downstream of DF27, they will give you a tree back up to P312 that does show DF27. But that doesn't mean they tested everything in between -- it's probably just filled in from ISOGG or somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    L21, U152 and DF27 are not the only subclades of P312, just the most common. There are three others that are less numerous, but by no means rare: DF19, DF99 and L238, as well as a few others that are fairly rare.
    Since the OP is from Portugal I think it is in his interest to see the stats for his country.

    At https://www.familytreedna.com/public.../R;name=R-DF19 only 1 out of 932 people that are positive for DF19 are from Portugal.

    There is not a single positive for DF99 from Portugal at https://www.familytreedna.com/public.../R;name=R-DF99

    L238 is also void of positive participants from Portugal. https://www.familytreedna.com/public.../R;name=R-L238


    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post

    I would be surprised if 23andme does not test for P312, as it is the most common marker in Europe.
    Surprise! As a matter of fact, 23andme v5 does not test for P312. I posted a spreadsheet with the tested SNPs back in 2017 at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-v5-Y-DNA-SNPs

    23andme v4 didn't test for it either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decimo View Post
    My father tested at LivingDNA and was placed on P312. I did a test on 23andMe and was placed on P311. Based on what I read, 23andMe doesn't test P312, only the subclades L21 and U152; since I am negative for those, I got bumped "upwards" to P311. That leaves out DF27, however, which 23andMe also doesn't test. Does anyone know if LivingDNA tests DF27? Given the amount of SNPs they cover I'd expect so, but their raw data for Y-DNA only gives me a list of positive SNPs so I can't verify it.

    If not, what test would you recommend to see if I belong in DF27? I don't see the point in taking FTDNA's Big-Y given the price and that I already know I'm at least on P312.

    I'm new at this and would welcome any advice. Thank you.
    If you ask LivingDNA what you tested negative for downstream of P312 they will provide that information.

    DF27 is hard to test for and it is why 23andme and LivingDNA do not test for it since they use a testing method that doesn't allow a result. The individual test at FTDNA was designed by Thomas Krahn when he worked at FTDNA. He is the founder and owner of Yseq.net He also maintains Ybrowse at http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?

    The best thing for you to do, since you do not want to pay for Big Y, is to get an individual DF27 test at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=1934 then if positive get a DF27 Panel at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27

    Then hopefully you get an itch to see which other SNPs you are positive and negative for that weren't tested for by Yseq and you decide to get a Big Y test. FTDNA has a lot of people tested by Big Y that haven't uploaded to YFull and because of that FTDNA has the most complete tree of DF27 SNPs.

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    For more stats of subclades of R1b in Portugal take a look at this map that MitchellSince1893 created They are posted as a percentage of M343 positive kits. So in that case it is a percentage of the total 273 tested people with direct paternal ancestry from Portugal.

    If you click on the pie chart you can see the stats:

    M343 total 273
    DF27 64.10%
    Z290 13.92%
    U106 7.69%
    U152 7.33%
    Z2103 3.66%
    PF7562 0.73%
    PF7589 0.73%
    DF19 0.37%
    S1194 0.37%
    FGC87429 0.37%
    V88 0.37%
    A8063 0.37%

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  17. #10
    This discussion was very helpful, thank you. I've ordered Yseq's single DF27 test, given the likelihood that that's my subclade.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Then hopefully you get an itch to see which other SNPs you are positive and negative for that weren't tested for by Yseq and you decide to get a Big Y test. FTDNA has a lot of people tested by Big Y that haven't uploaded to YFull and because of that FTDNA has the most complete tree of DF27 SNPs.
    Having read a bit more into the subject I begin to see the benefit of doing the Big-Y test, yes. I'll probably get it at some point.

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