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Thread: Migration in Roman Britain

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    All of this seems tangential when trying to answer the question of how much genetic influence the Roman period had on Britain, it really doesn't seem much, afterall Latin did not take hold over much of the region, urbanization was not particularly strong and later Irish and Germanic immigration diluted any influence that existed but it's not like Bretons have that much "exotic" ancestry.

    I certainly wouldn't call Roman Britain "multicultural" anyway.
    On Britain as a whole, there probably wasn't a huge genetic influence. However, at a more localized level the genetic impact can be significant.

    For example: E-V13 is almost exclusively concentrated in a very specific area of Wales, in/near Abergele, Wales.
    Recent genetic studies as part of the Genetic history of Europe[11] on the Y chromosomes of men in Abergele have revealed that there is a significant percentage of E1b1b1a2 haplogroup in Abergele. Membership in Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) was found to average at 38.97% in a small sample of 18 male y-chromosomes in Abergele. This genetic marker is found at its highest concentrations in the Balkans at over 40% in areas, but at much lower percentages in Northern Europe at less than 5%.

    The reason for notably higher levels of E1b1b in Abergele is most likely the heavy presence of the Roman Army in Abergele as most of the soldiers that came to Britain did not come from Italy, but from other parts of the Roman Empire. Other notable levels of genetic marker E-V13 have been found in a few other towns in Britain that were known to have had a heavy Roman presence nearly 2000 years ago.[


    I've previously theorized that the higher concentration of R-U152 in Northern England may in part be due to Roman Auxilia, manning Hadrian Wall forts. They were primarily from Northern Gaul, Beligica, and Germania Inferior. Areas with above average, concentrations of U152 (10-40% in present day population studies).

    Their long term genetic impact (almost 300 years of occupation) in a sparsely populated area may be disproportionate when compared to more populated areas of Romano-Britain.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 09-04-2020 at 04:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post

    I've previously theorized that the higher concentration of R-U152 in Northern England may in part be due to Roman Auxilia, manning Hadrian Wall forts. They were primarily from Northern Gaul, Beligica, and Germania Inferior. Areas with above average, concentrations of U152 (10-40% in present day population studies).

    Their long term genetic impact (almost 300 years of occupation) in a sparsely populated area may be disproportionate when compared to more populated areas of Romano-Britain.
    And 6Drif22 was U152...
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    And 6Drif22 was U152...
    Good article about him and Romans in northern England

    https://sites.google.com/site/wheato...l-life-example
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    This makes me wonder about the Roman (from the Italian peninsula) admixture in Northern France and the Rhine border area, which might be responsible for my Y-line; I would roughly estimate it at around 5%, but it wouldn't surprise me if especially the Alsace area and maybe the area around Cologne have higher levels. Modelling this is a bit difficult, because I'm not sure what samples to use for Gauls.

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    I thought this was an interesting take:

    Let’s say you were a woman born in a thriving market town in Roman Britain in the year 360. If you survived to age 60, that market town would no longer exist, along with every other urban settlement of any significant size. You lived in a small village instead of a genuine town. You had grown up using money, but now you bartered—grain for metalwork, beer for pottery, hides for fodder. You no longer saw the once-ubiquitous Roman army or the battalions of officials who administered the Roman state. Increasing numbers of migrants from the North Sea coast of continental Europe—pagans who didn’t speak a word of Latin or the local British language, certainly not wage-earning servants of the Roman state—were already in the process of transforming lowland Britain into England. That 60-year-old woman had been born into a place as fundamentally Roman as anywhere in the Empire. She died in a place that was barely recognizable.
    https://www.motherjones.com/media/20...-of-an-empire/

    Hyperbole or spot-on?
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 09-06-2020 at 03:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I thought this was an interesting take:



    https://www.motherjones.com/media/20...-of-an-empire/

    Hyperbole or spot-on?
    I think it depended on what part of Britain you were living. Roman lifestyles, architecture, and language lingered on a little longer in the western areas

    https://www.historyextra.com/period/...roman-britain/


    Wroxeter Roman City, Shropshire
    Where Roman urbanism carried on... buildings share many affinities with classical Roman architecture, and so in design, layout and size, they are essentially Roman buildings but built of wood not stone. The material culture associated with them is identical to the later fourth century, so we have the latest Roman material culture associated with buildings occupied into the fifth century. It would seem at Wroxeter that there were people attempting to keep the Roman way of life going.
    There was something very significant happening on the north Cornish coast in the fifth and sixth centuries. Archaeologists have found evidence for over 150 buildings at Tintagel, bearing decidedly Roman characteristics such as rectangular layouts and multiple rooms.
    Far from dying out after the end of the Roman period, the language that the Romans imported seems to have lived and indeed spread, at least within the confines of Latin memorial inscriptions. Such things have been found widely from Cornwall through Wales and western Britain right up to the Lake District and into the British kingdoms in southern Scotland.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 09-12-2020 at 03:16 PM.
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    During the Roman occupation of Britain, over time the Roman army in Britain consisted more from the local population than from abroad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    On Britain as a whole, there probably wasn't a huge genetic influence. However, at a more localized level the genetic impact can be significant.

    For example: E-V13 is almost exclusively concentrated in a very specific area of Wales, in/near Abergele, Wales.




    I've previously theorized that the higher concentration of R-U152 in Northern England may in part be due to Roman Auxilia, manning Hadrian Wall forts. They were primarily from Northern Gaul, Beligica, and Germania Inferior. Areas with above average, concentrations of U152 (10-40% in present day population studies).

    Their long term genetic impact (almost 300 years of occupation) in a sparsely populated area may be disproportionate when compared to more populated areas of Romano-Britain.
    I rather tend to think that R1b-U152 is the primary indicator of Celtic arrival in the British Isles during the Iron Age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    I rather tend to think that R1b-U152 is the primary indicator of Celtic arrival in the British Isles during the Iron Age.
    I also think similarly as it pertains to U152 in much of Southern and eastern England. I’ve previously posted about the Iceni being a source for U152 in the Norfolk part of East Anglia U152 hotspot.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post128266

    But as it pertains to the higher than average U152 in Northern England, I tend to think the Roman Era was more of a factor.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 09-16-2020 at 12:57 PM.
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