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Thread: Migration in Roman Britain

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    All of this seems tangential when trying to answer the question of how much genetic influence the Roman period had on Britain, it really doesn't seem much, afterall Latin did not take hold over much of the region, urbanization was not particularly strong and later Irish and Germanic immigration diluted any influence that existed but it's not like Bretons have that much "exotic" ancestry.

    I certainly wouldn't call Roman Britain "multicultural" anyway.
    On Britain as a whole, there probably wasn't a huge genetic influence. However, at a more localized level the genetic impact can be significant.

    For example: E-V13 is almost exclusively concentrated in a very specific area of Wales, in/near Abergele, Wales.
    Recent genetic studies as part of the Genetic history of Europe[11] on the Y chromosomes of men in Abergele have revealed that there is a significant percentage of E1b1b1a2 haplogroup in Abergele. Membership in Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) was found to average at 38.97% in a small sample of 18 male y-chromosomes in Abergele. This genetic marker is found at its highest concentrations in the Balkans at over 40% in areas, but at much lower percentages in Northern Europe at less than 5%.

    The reason for notably higher levels of E1b1b in Abergele is most likely the heavy presence of the Roman Army in Abergele as most of the soldiers that came to Britain did not come from Italy, but from other parts of the Roman Empire. Other notable levels of genetic marker E-V13 have been found in a few other towns in Britain that were known to have had a heavy Roman presence nearly 2000 years ago.[


    I've previously theorized that the higher concentration of R-U152 in Northern England may in part be due to Roman Auxilia, manning Hadrian Wall forts. They were primarily from Northern Gaul, Beligica, and Germania Inferior. Areas with above average, concentrations of U152 (10-40% in present day population studies).

    Their long term genetic impact (almost 300 years of occupation) in a sparsely populated area may be disproportionate when compared to more populated areas of Romano-Britain.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 09-04-2020 at 04:07 AM.
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post

    I've previously theorized that the higher concentration of R-U152 in Northern England may in part be due to Roman Auxilia, manning Hadrian Wall forts. They were primarily from Northern Gaul, Beligica, and Germania Inferior. Areas with above average, concentrations of U152 (10-40% in present day population studies).

    Their long term genetic impact (almost 300 years of occupation) in a sparsely populated area may be disproportionate when compared to more populated areas of Romano-Britain.
    And 6Drif22 was U152...
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    And 6Drif22 was U152...
    Good article about him and Romans in northern England

    https://sites.google.com/site/wheato...l-life-example
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    This makes me wonder about the Roman (from the Italian peninsula) admixture in Northern France and the Rhine border area, which might be responsible for my Y-line; I would roughly estimate it at around 5%, but it wouldn't surprise me if especially the Alsace area and maybe the area around Cologne have higher levels. Modelling this is a bit difficult, because I'm not sure what samples to use for Gauls.

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    I thought this was an interesting take:

    Let’s say you were a woman born in a thriving market town in Roman Britain in the year 360. If you survived to age 60, that market town would no longer exist, along with every other urban settlement of any significant size. You lived in a small village instead of a genuine town. You had grown up using money, but now you bartered—grain for metalwork, beer for pottery, hides for fodder. You no longer saw the once-ubiquitous Roman army or the battalions of officials who administered the Roman state. Increasing numbers of migrants from the North Sea coast of continental Europe—pagans who didn’t speak a word of Latin or the local British language, certainly not wage-earning servants of the Roman state—were already in the process of transforming lowland Britain into England. That 60-year-old woman had been born into a place as fundamentally Roman as anywhere in the Empire. She died in a place that was barely recognizable.
    https://www.motherjones.com/media/20...-of-an-empire/

    Hyperbole or spot-on?
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 09-06-2020 at 03:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I thought this was an interesting take:



    https://www.motherjones.com/media/20...-of-an-empire/

    Hyperbole or spot-on?
    I think it depended on what part of Britain you were living. Roman lifestyles, architecture, and language lingered on a little longer in the western areas

    https://www.historyextra.com/period/...roman-britain/


    Wroxeter Roman City, Shropshire
    Where Roman urbanism carried on... buildings share many affinities with classical Roman architecture, and so in design, layout and size, they are essentially Roman buildings but built of wood not stone. The material culture associated with them is identical to the later fourth century, so we have the latest Roman material culture associated with buildings occupied into the fifth century. It would seem at Wroxeter that there were people attempting to keep the Roman way of life going.
    There was something very significant happening on the north Cornish coast in the fifth and sixth centuries. Archaeologists have found evidence for over 150 buildings at Tintagel, bearing decidedly Roman characteristics such as rectangular layouts and multiple rooms.
    Far from dying out after the end of the Roman period, the language that the Romans imported seems to have lived and indeed spread, at least within the confines of Latin memorial inscriptions. Such things have been found widely from Cornwall through Wales and western Britain right up to the Lake District and into the British kingdoms in southern Scotland.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 09-12-2020 at 03:16 PM.
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    During the Roman occupation of Britain, over time the Roman army in Britain consisted more from the local population than from abroad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    On Britain as a whole, there probably wasn't a huge genetic influence. However, at a more localized level the genetic impact can be significant.

    For example: E-V13 is almost exclusively concentrated in a very specific area of Wales, in/near Abergele, Wales.




    I've previously theorized that the higher concentration of R-U152 in Northern England may in part be due to Roman Auxilia, manning Hadrian Wall forts. They were primarily from Northern Gaul, Beligica, and Germania Inferior. Areas with above average, concentrations of U152 (10-40% in present day population studies).

    Their long term genetic impact (almost 300 years of occupation) in a sparsely populated area may be disproportionate when compared to more populated areas of Romano-Britain.
    I rather tend to think that R1b-U152 is the primary indicator of Celtic arrival in the British Isles during the Iron Age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    I rather tend to think that R1b-U152 is the primary indicator of Celtic arrival in the British Isles during the Iron Age.
    I also think similarly as it pertains to U152 in much of Southern and eastern England. I’ve previously posted about the Iceni being a source for U152 in the Norfolk part of East Anglia U152 hotspot.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post128266

    But as it pertains to the higher than average U152 in Northern England, I tend to think the Roman Era was more of a factor.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 09-16-2020 at 12:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    How free movement in the Roman Empire resulted in a multicultural Britain.
    Garry Shaw | Published 05 April 2016




    https://www.historytoday.com/migration-roman-britain
    Yes I'm not 100 percent convinced all of Driffield Terrace guys were gladiators... Granted York has been well populated since Roman times and I'm sure most of the funeral material was reused or moved/destroyed etc. When I complied a list of funeral material found in or very near Driffield since the 1600s... It's more military than anything else... Also a ton of parallels between them and the soldiers of Towton... But I don't know if could tell the difference between training a soldier or a gladiator just by looking at osteology... But I thinks it's pretty clear they led violent lives and we're trained. Also my closest match via ydna is now with a German family MDKA born 1720s in Frankfurt an Main... And his father had a middle name more common in the North - Thielemann - but I don't know how much to read into that. Their surname is Ochs and I've found some Weber lines going back to Ochs and a noblewoman in Germany... But that's not my research so who knows....

    It is interesting that they were buried near citizens and wealthy graves... they were not "slaves" as I found the burial site of the people they just threw into the mass grave willy-nilly some with their feet higher than their head and no care taken or coffins used... that's on the other side of the railway - I read about that in the paper/site on Roman funeral materials cataloged around York... that cemetery raises more questions than it answered though! Why did they bury a cremation burial later in 6drif-3's grave and take 6drif-3's skull out and seal it in the box that contained the cremation?

    This from that site on Roman burials around York: "Raine considered that this cemetery was of lower social status than that on The Mount. But it included the tomb with the monumental candelabrum (see Inscriptions etc., No. 137), the coffin of a decurion (ibid., No. 105), that of a sevir's wife (ibid., No. 106) and probably also that of the sevir himself (ibid., No. 110). Yet in proportion to its area, this cemetery does not seem to have produced the same quantity of carved tombstones as yielded by The Mount. Again, 'on the outskirts' of the cemetery, Raine (loc. cit., 7) describes 'two putei or pits used for the burial of slaves or people of mean repute', contiguous and from 10 ft. to 12 ft. deep, 15 ft. to 20 ft. wide and 30 ft. long. Corpses had been thrown into them in large numbers without order or respect, the feet often higher than the head, and a thin layer of earth was thrown over each corpse until a certain distance from the surface was reached. The Roman date was attested by potsherds found amongst the bodies. The list of burials gives the impression that the cemetery contained a majority of child and female burials. If a complete record of all burials had been kept, it would probably have redressed the balance; indeed, one group of skulls (p. 84b), analysed by L. H. Dudley Buxton in 1935, gave a ratio of three males to one female (JRS, XXV (1935), 47–8). In fact, only those burials which were distinctive won a specific record, and women, more adorned in life than men, carried more trinkets with them to the grave. Children's burials were also easy to recognise and appealed to Victorian sentiment; again, parents may well have spent more upon a burial than heirs were likely to do, particularly if their children had survived beyond infancy"

    Keeping in mind Driffield Terrace is also "on the Mount."

    that site here: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rc.../vol1/pp67-110

    Nice drawing of the burials on and around "the Mount" here and shows Driffield Terrace's relation to the whole area:Screenshot (93).png

    Per Dr. Iain: Match with a male line with the surname Ochs b. 1720 and d. 1799 in Frankfurt an Main, Hesse, Germany. Combined with STR differences, around 450 to 1220 years ago (with 95% confidence) or around 560 to 1020 years ago (68%) for a common ancestor.

    In an autosomal overall note - if you glance at my Dad's side it looks mostly Lutheran German (parts of later Prussia - even one of our immigrant ancestors Captain Georg Wolff or Wolfe owned the first tavern in Allentown, Pennsylvania when the pop was around 100 and it was named "King of Prussia!)... but I discovered more recent Scots and Northern Irish on his side from the founders of the Presbyterian churches in early Cumberland in Colonial Pennsylvania through which I get matching with Scots Higland families... so I'm more of 70/30 Gael/Germani mixture... but anyway my paternal line was a part of those Lutheran migrations to Pennsylvania... I still have a big project to work on those lines, including the paternal one, over in Germany. Case in point I finally heard back from a Weaver on the male line who I sent a message to via ancestry a while ago - he said 23 and me assigned him to U152 - so I suggested he look into the Swiss Mennonite Weavers from Weaverland in Lancaster - as those do show up in my cousin matching, but very likely through my father's mother who has a couple lines from Brecknock and those Mennonite families in Lancaster - those Swiss Weavers are also U152.

    P.S. one of the arguments against them being "soldiers" was that they are always buried in the field right at the battles site... what about if it was just a local skirmish north of the wall and only a few were killed? Wouldn't be too hard to transport them back to the headquarters for burial... I'd imagine any family members would prefer that. A large battle - yes - you might have to bury them all there logistics and such similar to Towton... but these guys would have been local garrisons... and skirmishing and killed locally... like I said just raised questions. I found a fort further north in Southern Scotland - Roman - guys buried the same way... it was a very fun subject to collect data and stuff on though ;-). Additionally 6drif-3 was a big f****r... would have qualified for first cohort or bodyguard via Vegestius' writings on the average Roman soldier and other units etc... I read some of that as well! Where are the aDNA results from the burials along the Rhine where a lot of these guys might have come from!!!

    Cheers,
    Charlie

    P.P.S. and blabbing a bit further - so we have in DF98 the house of Bourbon - now NPEs are possible... but let us say they actually do go back to early Frankish (or whoever was there or moved there) around Worms... if you read a bit about the Robertians some have them connected (including Medlands - though they state that the primary source that connection is based on back in history has not bee found)... to the Guaes around Worms - Wormsgau and others areas - were associated with them. If you look at Dr. Iain's older pdf on DF98 and Wettin - you will see a cluster of DF98ers around the Worms, Mainz, and Mannheim and bit south of Frankfurt... so go figure. Where are those aDNA results from all around that area! I know there are a lot of burials around their associated with the Franks and others tribes - and Hessen was fought over by the Franks and the Saxons... i.e. "Following Saxon incursions into Chattish territory in the 7th century, two gaue had been established; a Frankish one, comprising an area around Fritzlar and Kassel, and a Saxonian one. In the 9th century, the Saxon Hessengau also came under the rule of the Franconians." The Robertians associated with the Rhiengau and Worms etc (Robert II (Rodbert, Chrodobert) (died 12 July 807[citation needed]) was a Frankish nobleman who was count of Worms and of Rheingau and Count of Hesbaye[citation needed] around the year 800. He is the earliest-known male-line ancestor of the French royal family called the Capetians (including the Valois and the Bourbons), and of other royal families which ruled in Portugal, Spain, Luxembourg, Parma, Brazil and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.)... also with the House of Wettin - in my research they were not up-starts or "new" nobility (i.e. Rikdag possibly is a progenitor of the House of Wettin, the son of Volkmar I (d. before 961), a Saxon count in the Harzgau. He is mentioned as an agnatic relative of Theodoric I of Wettin, who was raised at the Meissen court, however, the exact circumstances of their family relationship are not known.). They had been a part of the tribal nobility for a while... so what groups of people were they from? Ideally we need some aDNA matching with them under DF98 in that area... to be sure!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 12-29-2020 at 12:11 PM.
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Captain Johann Martin Weber, 1st Pennsylvania (Long) Rifles/Rangers of the Frontier, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Rhineland, Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers of Eboracum.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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