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Thread: Ancient Egyptians and their DNA

  1. #1
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    Ancient Egyptians and their DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I don't know the reliability of the person posting this, and reading through posts on ForumBiodiversity can turn even the hardiest man's stomach, but if it is in fact based on data that is to be published, I think it is very interesting...

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1178041

    Basically, @beyoku lays out the following Old Kingdom (OK) and Middle Kingdom (MK) Y-SNP and mtDNA results:

    Old Kingdom Samples:
    A-M13, L3f
    A-M13, L0a1
    B-M150, L3d
    E-M2, L3e5
    E-M2, L2a1
    E-M123, L5a1
    E-M35, R0a
    E-M41, L2a1
    E-M41, L1b1a
    E-M75, M1
    E-M78, L4b
    J-M267, L3i
    R-M173, L2
    T-M184, L0a

    Middle Kingdom Samples:
    A-M13, L3x
    E-M75, L2a1
    E-M78, L3e5
    E-M78, M1a
    E-M96, L4a
    E-V6, L3
    B-M112, L0b

    If this data stands, then it looks like the ancient Egyptian genepool was much more African in both Y-DNA and mtDNA than it is today. Of interest to most who post on this site is the lone R1+ sample and the complete lack of mtDNA HV, H, K and U.
    Apologies if responding to old posts within a thread is considered undesirable in this forum, but I happen to have that beyoku gentleman as a friend on Facebook. In all the years I've known him, I've seen no evidence that he is unreliable as a scholar. It would be ideal if the data he reports got published in a peer-reviewed paper, but given the political circumstances in Egypt I am not sure if that will ever happen.

    It would be even more enlightening if we had autosomal data on these Egyptian remains. The DNA Tribes company does claim that they've done analyses on King Tut and Ramses III (both New Kingdom) that show sub-Saharan affinities, but a private company may not be the most reliable source.

    Back to the subject of haplogroups, I've seen this 2012 paper on Ramses III cited as saying that he had Y-DNA E1b1a, which I recall is widespread in Africa today.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Brandon S. Pilcher For This Useful Post:

     Humanist (02-03-2014),  Mehrdad (02-05-2014),  Theramster (07-12-2016),  Tomenable (08-02-2015)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon S. Pilcher View Post
    The DNA Tribes company does claim that they've done analyses on King Tut and Ramses III (both New Kingdom) that show sub-Saharan affinities, but a private company may not be the most reliable source.
    I believe you are referring to the autosomal STR data that was published. I checked the values myself, as well, in 2011. The following is what I posted on ABF:

    When I had looked at the values manually, a few months ago, the "best" fits were African populations, and Mediterranean populations. And, this was only for some of the samples. Some samples appeared to be nearly exclusively African.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Humanist For This Useful Post:

     Brandon S. Pilcher (02-03-2014),  Mehrdad (02-05-2014)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    I believe you are referring to the autosomal STR data that was published. I checked the values myself, as well, in 2011. The following is what I posted on ABF:
    How did you do it? I've wanted to do something similar myself, but didn't have the tech at my disposal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon S. Pilcher View Post
    How did you do it? I've wanted to do something similar myself, but didn't have the tech at my disposal.
    No worries. Not much tech required. Only a spreadsheet program, and a good deal of time. Created an excel sheet containing a great deal of autosomal STR data from various populations of the world. Compared the STR data with the markers overlapping from the published ancient Egyptian data. From that, it was quite apparent that the published autosomal STR data was most consistent, all things considered, with modern Africans.

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     Brandon S. Pilcher (02-03-2014)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon S. Pilcher View Post
    Apologies if responding to old posts within a thread is considered undesirable in this forum, but I happen to have that beyoku gentleman as a friend on Facebook. In all the years I've known him, I've seen no evidence that he is unreliable as a scholar. It would be ideal if the data he reports got published in a peer-reviewed paper, but given the political circumstances in Egypt I am not sure if that will ever happen.

    It would be even more enlightening if we had autosomal data on these Egyptian remains. The DNA Tribes company does claim that they've done analyses on King Tut and Ramses III (both New Kingdom) that show sub-Saharan affinities, but a private company may not be the most reliable source.

    Back to the subject of haplogroups, I've seen this 2012 paper on Ramses III cited as saying that he had Y-DNA E1b1a, which I recall is widespread in Africa today.
    Why hasn't this paper been published? Would really challenge the idea that Egypt was a West Eurasian civilization. I would also love to see a study on whether DE originated in Africa or is a back migration.

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    Ancient Egyptians and their DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Why hasn't this paper been published? Would really challenge the idea that Egypt was a West Eurasian civilization. I would also love to see a study on whether DE originated in Africa or is a back migration.
    because it has been done before. people who try to argue egypt was not west eurasian before, are scoffed at and labeled 'afro-centrists'

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Why hasn't this paper been published? Would really challenge the idea that Egypt was a West Eurasian civilization. I would also love to see a study on whether DE originated in Africa or is a back migration.
    The second link he provided is to a publication, no? Or am I missing something?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  11. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    The second link he provided is to a publication, no? Or am I missing something?
    I meant the paper on the results beyoku posted about.

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    Egypt went through periods of change (ie: Old, Middle kingdom..etc) and migration should be treated as a gradual process, not an instantaneous population replacement, at least not in Egypt's case. I would imagine - and I think DNA and history will back it up that the earlier periods were more "SSA" for lack of a better word. Even by looking at STR results for the mummies, you can see non-African influence. Tut had sizeable scores of NW European and Mediterranean in his results, but he was nonetheless closest to other African populations today. My own father's FGS mtDNA I2 is only 2-steps away from the Greco-Roman period mummy found a few months back. Obviously there is no single modern population which can represent ancient Egypt.

  13. #10
    On one hand I don't think Egypt should had a major SSA component at any point. On the other hand it's West Eurasian component is more Levantine and Arabian like than North African like suggesting it is recent.

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