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Thread: Haplogroup Distribution in Romania and Republic of Moldova

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  1. #1
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    Red face Haplogroup Distribution in Romania and Republic of Moldova

    I pulled together all the sources that I could find and came up with about 1200 regional samples.

    Here are the results on regional level:

    Haplogroup Oltenia Muntenia Dobrogea Wallachia (Oltenia,Muntenia and Dobrogea) Transylvania Moldavia Republic of Moldova
    R1b 15% 13% 18% 14% 19% 12% 11%
    R1a 20% 13% 8% 16% 19.5% 20.5% 30%
    I2 26% 24% 38% 26% 25% 31.5% 29%
    J2 13% 19% 8% 16% 14% 14% 5%
    E1b1b 15.5% 16% 8% 16% 12% 10% 14%
    J1 1% 2% 0% 1% 1% 1% 2%
    G2a 2% 6% 13% 5% 2% 3.5% 0.5%
    I1 5.5% 3% 0% 4% 3% 5% 3%
    N1c 0.5% 1% 5% 1% 1.5% 2% 3%
    T 0.5% 1% 0% 0.5% 2% 0% 1%
    Q1 0% 1% 0% 0.5% 1% 0% 0.5%
    E-V22 1% 0% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    H 0% 1% 0% 0% 0% 0.5% 0%
    Total 234 268 39 541 315 166 212



    County level (only academic sources; not shown below, but included in regional totals are those from FTDNA projects, Yfull and 23andme)
    Muntenia (Greater Wallachia)

    Haplogroup Calarasi Arges Dambovita Ialomita Teleorman Prahova Giurgiu Bucuresti
    R1b 8% 33% 0% 0% 29% 8% 20% 14%
    R1a 13% 17% 0% 50% 0% 8% 20% 13%
    I2 27% 17% 33% 0% 43% 35% 27% 15%
    J2 13% 33% 33% 0% 0% 18% 24% 18%
    E1b1b 25% 0% 17% 0% 14% 18% 7% 19%
    J1 2% 0% 0% 0% 0% 3% 0% 3%
    G2a 6% 0% 17% 0% 14% 10% 0% 6%
    I1 6% 0% 0% 0% 0% 3% 0% 5%
    N1c 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 1%
    T 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 2% 2%
    Q1 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 2%
    E-V22 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    H 0% 0% 0% 50% 0% 0% 0% 1%
    Total 48 6 6 2 7 40 45 104



    Oltenia (Lesser Wallachia)

    Haplogroup Mehedinti Dolj Olt
    R1b 21% 13% 15%
    R1a 17% 23% 5%
    I2 28% 24% 45%
    J2 21% 12% 10%
    E1b1b 14% 16% 15%
    J1 0% 1% 0%
    G2a 0% 2% 10%
    I1 0% 7% 0%
    N1c 0% 1% 0%
    T 0% 1% 0%
    Q1 0% 1% 0%
    E-V22 0% 1% 0%
    H 0% 0% 0%
    Total 29 182 20



    Transylvania

    Haplogroup Maramures Bihor Arad Alba Cluj Brasov
    R1b 24% 19% 33% 30% 11% 10%
    R1a 17% 18% 13% 19% 29% 14%
    I2 21% 30% 17% 33% 16% 28%
    J2 31% 12% 23% 0% 9% 16%
    E1b1b 3% 12% 3% 11% 18% 18%
    J1 0% 1% 0% 0% 2% 4%
    G2a 3% 0% 0% 0% 5% 0%
    I1 0% 1% 0% 0% 5% 8%
    N1c 0% 2% 3% 0% 2% 0%
    T 0% 1% 7% 7% 2% 0%
    Q1 0% 3% 0% 0% 0% 2%
    E-V22 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    H 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    Total 29 105 30 27 55 50


    Moldavia

    Haplogroup Vrancea Neamt Suceava
    R1b 16% 8% 43%
    R1a 16% 24% 14%
    I2 23% 42% 14%
    J2 16% 11% 14%
    E1b1b 16% 7% 0%
    J1 2% 0% 0%
    G2a 2% 4% 0%
    I1 7% 2% 0%
    N1c 2% 1% 14%
    T 0% 0% 0%
    Q1 0% 0% 0%
    E-V22 0% 0% 0%
    H 0% 1% 0%
    Total 44 89 7


    Republic of Moldova

    Haplogroup Stefan Voda Drochia Chisinau
    R1b 15% 17% 6%
    R1a 37% 22% 36%
    I2 21% 28% 37%
    J2 4% 4% 3%
    E1b1b 13% 13% 10%
    J1 6% 2% 0%
    G2a 0% 2% 0%
    I1 3% 7% 0%
    N1c 1% 2% 6%
    T 0% 2% 3%
    Q1 0% 2% 0%
    E-V22 0% 0% 0%
    H 0% 0% 0%
    Total 71 54 70



    With minorities

    Haplogroup Harghita (Hungarians) Bihor (Slovaks) Bihor (Germans) Bihor (Roma) Transnistria (Ukrainians) Constanta (Vlachs)
    R1b 25% 6% 56% 0% 21% 33%
    R1a 19% 60% 0% 0% 40% 2%
    I2 44% 11% 31% 0% 21% 19%
    J2 0% 6% 0% 0% 8% 38%
    E1b1b 6% 9% 6% 3% 0% 7%
    J1 0% 3% 0% 0% 2% 0%
    G2a 0% 3% 3% 0% 0% 0%
    I1 0% 0% 3% 0% 4% 0%
    N1c 3% 3% 0% 0% 6% 0%
    T 3% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    Q1 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    E-V22 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    H 0% 0% 0% 97% 0% 0%
    Total 36 35 32 35 53 42



    I personally think that J2 primarily and some R-L23 secondarily are the haplogroups of those Imperial Romans responsible for the romanisation of the local Dacians/Getae/Thracians, the latter whom were probably of E-V13, G2a and non-CTS10228 I2 stock. Most of R1a and I2 (since 95%+ falls under I-CTS10228) is probably related to Slavic migrations.
    Recent ancestry: 2/4 Central Moldova (Orhei district), 1/4 Southern Moldova (Cahul district), 1/4 Northern Moldova (Briceni district)
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  3. #2
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    Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241.
    In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.
    Last edited by Dorkymon; 08-28-2020 at 03:34 PM.
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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241.
    In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.
    If I am not mistaken, those Romanians more specifically belong to J2b-Y22894 (BY101837). So far on Yfull this cluster is represented by a Greek from Thessaloniki and a Bosniak, they share a TMRCA of ~500 ybp. However, Albanians also belong to this group and I believe some are in fact closest to those Romanians, and that they may form an older branch. The J2b-Y22894 Albanians are primarily from Kosovo, the Presheva/Preševo Valley, and northeastern Albania (Dibėr and Kukės).

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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    If I am not mistaken, those Romanians more specifically belong to J2b-Y22894 (BY101837). So far on Yfull this cluster is represented by a Greek from Thessaloniki and a Bosniak, they share a TMRCA of ~500 ybp. However, Albanians also belong to this group and I believe some are in fact closest to those Romanians, and that they may form an older branch. The J2b-Y22894 Albanians are primarily from Kosovo, the Presheva/Preševo Valley, and northeastern Albania (Dibėr and Kukės).
    Romanians most likely originally originated south of the Danube, somewhere in the Dardania region, where they lived next to Albanians until they migrated north. Their language is connected to Albanian. This is also the position Noel Malcolm holds. And a group of Vlachs that became Aromanians split from Romanians and migrated South. And so far it is the most plausible theory. Romania was under Roman occupation for only 150 years compared to Western Balkans and Kosovo which was up to 800 years or more.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but all the Bronze Age Thracians I have seen belonged to I2a2 and R1a-Z93. Bronze Age Dacians should fall into the same cluster given that they were a group of Thracians. So the Dacian/Thracian language was spread by people rich in I2a2 and R1a, while Illyrian rich in J2b2-L283 and some R1b like BY611. Myceaneans were rich in J2a like modern Greeks. Just by looking at some of the Bronze age YDNA some of these Indo-European speakers brought from the steppes one can identify which population descendant from which.

    Another linguistic point how Albanian could of never come from Dacian or Thracian




    The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean fortress. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Besi' . The structure here is the same as in many European languages:
    thus the 'town of peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say Qytet i Pjetrit, not Pjeterqytet. If 'para' were the Albanian for 'ford, then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve' ; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa' , but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian.
    Since Dacians were a group of Thracians they can pretty much be eliminated out of the picture too. So can Greeks. This leaves only Illyrian left.



    Cut out some other parts here


    Only remnants of a Latin speaking population survived in parts of the central and west-central Ballkans; when it re-emerges into the historical record in the tenth and eleventh centuries, we find its members leading a semi-nomadic life as shepherds, horse-breeders and travelling muleteers. These were the Vlachs, who can still be seen tending their flocks in the mountains of northern Greece, Macedonia and Albania today. The name Vlach was a word used by the Slavs for those they encountered who spoke a strange, usually Latinate, language; the Vlachs own name for themselves is 'Aromanians' (Aromani). As this name suggests, the Vlachs are closely linked to the Romanians:

    It included the upper Morava valley, northern Macedonia, and the whole of Kosovo. It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly), but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed. All the evidence comes together at this point. What is suggests is that the Kosovo region , together with at least part of northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs. One large group of Vlachs seems to have broken away and moved southwards by the ninth or tenth century; the proto-Romanians stayed in contact with Albanians significantly longer, before drifting north-eastwards, and crossing the Danube in the twelfth century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241.
    In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.
    Haha thank you and great work! For the J2 samples how were you able to determine that about 65% of them are J2a-M410 and 35% are J2b-M102? FTDNA, 23andme and tables from academic papers?

  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Haha thank you and great work! For the J2 samples how were you able to determine that about 65% of them are J2a-M410 and 35% are J2b-M102? FTDNA, 23andme and tables from academic papers?
    And Yfull

    Yep, however, I referred only to those for which the subclade could be determined. A lot of them stop at J2 level, as they come from papers released in the early 2000s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    And Yfull

    Yep, however, I referred only to those for which the subclade could be determined. A lot of them stop at J2 level, as they come from papers released in the early 2000s.
    Have you ever seen any J2a results that have their origins in Maramures on Yfull, FTDNA or 23andme?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Have you ever seen any J2a results that have their origins in Maramures on Yfull, FTDNA or 23andme?
    J2 is West Asian lineage, probably related to Greeks migration. Is not local to Romania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241.
    In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.
    J2B-M241 could not be of Cuman Origins.
    J2B-M421 is European J2B.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

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    I cannot believe all R1b/J2 there are from Romans, or all E-V13 are Daco-Thracian.

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