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Thread: Are Iraqi Arabs Arabized Mesopotamians?

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    Are Iraqi Arabs Arabized Mesopotamians?

    Tribal affiliations (e.g Banu Asad, Shammar ..) seem to be important and central to Iraqi Arabs (especially ones from the south). Keeping that in mind, what's the degree of genetic similarity between them and other Mesopotamians?

    1) Can we quantify the Arabian admixture gained after the Islamic conquests, using other Mesopotamians as the base?
    2) Which populations are the closest to them?
    3) (related to 2) How close/far do they plot from other Semitic-speaking Mesopotamians (Mandaeans, Assyrians etc.)?

    Responses are very much appreciated. Discussions on this topic are a bit scarce. Hopefully we will get aDNA from ancient Mesopotamia soon.
    Last edited by Lupriac; 09-02-2020 at 11:24 AM.

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    Iraqi Arabs are J1 dominant, while Syriacs and Yezidis are R1b dominant. I have attached the chart from a study by Serkan Dogan, 2017. It looks like Iraqi Arabs do descend from true Arab tribes and probably mixed with Turkmen and Kurds (who are sort of transitional Mesopotamian/Central Asian). Syriac and Yezidis seem to have a more ancient presence there.Screen Shot 2020-09-02 at 3.50.33 PM.pngScreen Shot 2020-09-02 at 3.50.49 PM.png
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    I think most people North of Arabia are not even real arabs, they are just arabized. I mean they are all semetic but they exactly not arabs, because they all had their own languages / culture at one point before islam

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    Iraq was heavily settled by Arab tribes from the Arabian Peninsula.The Iraqi Arab samples (excluding Syriacs/Sabians) seem to have 25% Arab admixture but there's one sample Iraqi:SIRQMUS05 that is around 60% BedouinB with the rest being indigenous Mesopotamian and Iranian ancestry.The Islamic conquests and Arab tribal migrations had a huge genetic impact on Iraq,Jordan/Palestine and North African countries like Sudan & Libya.I don't think it's accurate to portray most Arabic-speaking countries as merely culturally Arabized, the Arabs might not have had the population size necessary for population replacement but they had enough to leave a significant genetic impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofPhoenicia001 View Post
    Iraqi Arabs are J1 dominant, while Syriacs and Yezidis are R1b dominant. I have attached the chart from a study by Serkan Dogan, 2017. It looks like Iraqi Arabs do descend from true Arab tribes and probably mixed with Turkmen and Kurds (who are sort of transitional Mesopotamian/Central Asian). Syriac and Yezidis seem to have a more ancient presence there.Screen Shot 2020-09-02 at 3.50.33 PM.pngScreen Shot 2020-09-02 at 3.50.49 PM.png
    If Syriacs and Yazidis are R1b dominant, then how does that equate to an ancient presence there? R1b in West Asia is an invader haplogroup. Earliest (I think the only, in fact) R1b samples in West Asia were found near Urmia and are from the iron age.

    I'm convinced early Mesopotamians were most likely a mixture of E and J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halgurd View Post
    If Syriacs and Yazidis are R1b dominant, then how does that equate to an ancient presence there? R1b in West Asia is an invader haplogroup. Earliest (I think the only, in fact) R1b samples in West Asia were found near Urmia and are from the iron age.

    I'm convinced early Mesopotamians were most likely a mixture of E and J.
    Makes sense, I would have thought R1b would have arrived with Indo-Europeans arriving in the region from further north.

    To be honest, though, I'm not sure the earliest Arabic-speakers would have looked that different from pre-Islamic Mesopotamians to begin with. Presumably, the former would descend from a branch of West Semitic speakers moving into Arabia from the Fertile Crescent, so it would make sense if they looked similar to, say, Akkadians or Amorites.
    Last edited by Brandon S. Pilcher; 09-02-2020 at 10:41 PM.

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    I'd like to second drobbah's point. The impact of the early Muslim conquests in Mesopotamia is largely comparable to that of Anglo-Saxon settlement in the British Isles, in both cases we are somewhere in the ~25-30% ancestry range on average, some ethno-religious groups that cling to their identity derive considerably less ancestry from the conquerors while other areas have considerably more in accordance with greater geographic proximity and/or ethnic ties to the source from which these invading groups came, both events have also left a very clear trace in the form of distinct uniparental lineages, both events took place during Late Antiquity and have had a lasting cultural and linguistic impact.

    There are some important details that ought to be kept in mind however, one of those is the fact that there was an Arab presence in Mesopotamia centuries prior to the Islamic conquest, for instance the kingdom of Osroene (2nd century BC to 3rd century CE) was ruled by a dynasty of Nabatean origin, the Abgarid dynasty, while the kingdom of Araba was a 2nd century CE Arab kingdom centered around Hatra in Northern Mesopotamia. To give you another concrete example, as J1 is being mentioned, at least one branch found in Iraq (FT3367) is more likely to have arrived with the Bani Lakhm (a Qahtanite tribe that ruled from Al-Hirah from the 4th to 7th centuries CE) than with the Islamic conquerors considering its age and distribution.

    That being said, while most of the J1 in Iraq is attributable to Arab settlement, some of it is clearly older, one of the MLBA samples from Alalakh for instance was MF35937, a branch now found in Iraq. Some branches are bound to be even older and more basal, for that matter several basal samples from Kirkuk have been added to the YFull tree, one of them is now under FT33726 (Satsurblia's branch).
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    The ancient inhabitants of Iraq, before Islam.

    Arab historians differed in the lineage of the ancient Iraqis who expressed them in Nabat, so Al-Yaqoubi said in his history: 1/19, and Al-Masoudi in Muruj al-Dhahab: 2/25, that they were born ((Mash bin Aram bin Sam bin Noah, who came to the land of Babylon, Nimrod was born Al-Jabbar, and Nabit, who is Abu al-Nabat)). And attributed to them a narration attributed to Imam al-Sadiq x to the Prophet of God Ibrahim x who said: ((Nabati is one of the descendants of Abraham they are but nabtin: from the Nabat is water and mud, and nothing is harmful to his offspring, and people have devised knowledge, so we are them)). (Al-Khassal by Sheikh Al-Saduq: 404) And it is supported by another narration that Ibn Manzoor quoted in Lisan Al-Arab: 2/182, on the authority of Muhammad bin Sirin, on the authority of Ubaidah, who said: ((I heard Ali X, say: Whoever is asking about our lineage, then we fall from Kutha. And it was narrated on the authority of Ibn Al-Arabi that he said: A man asked Ali , and he said: Tell me, O Commander of the Faithful, about your origin, the associates of Quraysh, and he said: We are a people from Kutha. Abraham was from Kothe’s family, and that our lineage ended to him. ”And about that, Ibn Abbas said: We are the cohabitants of Quraysh living from Nabat, from the people of Kutha, and Nabat is from the people of Iraq.”) Ibn Amer Al-Andalusi, 11/267, said in Al-Mahalla: He says: We all duck. Hence, some Arab historians have leaned to the fact that the Nabat is one of the descendants of Nabit bin Ismail x, and rather brought the entire Adnan people back to Nabit. Ibn Abd al-Barr said in al-Nabet on the Narrators tribes, p. 20: ((And what the imams of this matter are in the lineage of Adnan, they said: Adnan bin Adad Bin Maqum Bin Nahor Bin Terah Bin Ya`roub Bin Yashgab Bin Nabit Bin Ismail Bin Ibrahim Khalil Al Rahman Bin Tarah And He is Azar Bin Nahor Bin Sarouh Bin Argo Bin Falagh Bin Eber Bin Shalkh Bin Arfakhhas Bin Sam Bin Noah ”). (See: The Great History of Bukhari: 1/5, Makkah News by Azraqi: 1/81) And contemporary studies have also proven that the Nabat, with their Iraqi and Shami sections, are Arabs, and that they are closer to the Quraish and the Hijaz tribes than the southern Arabs (the Qahtani). They share the names of Quraysha. Most of the people, as they participate in idolatry, and the line of Nabat is very close to the line of the revelation writers, and in their words pure Arabic vocabulary of the type of Arabic the Holy Qur’an, it is possible that they are from the Adnanis. But it is not known when they migrated to Iraq and the coasts of the Mediterranean specifically, and it is believed that they seemed to inhabit the desert east of Jordan (detailed: 3/14). Khalid bin Al-Walid was surprised when he entered Iraq with the Arabic of Nabat in the darkness of Iraq. Al-Tabari said in his history: 2/465: ((When Khalid besieged the people of the palaces near Al-Hirah, he ordered his princes to start praying its people to one of three: Islam, the tribute, or the discrediting Then they chose to disavow, and when the circle took place on the people of the palaces, and most Muslims among them were murdered, the owners of the palaces called out: O Arabs, one of the three accepted us, and they informed us of immortality, and Khaled said to them: And what you are is judged? Uday bin Uday bin Zaid al-Abadi said to him: Rather Arab and Arabized Arabs. He said: If you were as you say you did not talk to us and hate our matter? Uday said to him: To guide you on what we say that we have no tongue except in Arabic. He said: You are right. Choose one of the three: to enter into our religion, then you have what we have and what we owe you, if you rise and emigrate, and if you stay in your homes, or the tribute, or the tribute and the fulfillment, then by God I have brought you a people who are more careful than you to life. He said: We give you the tribute.)) . There are other evidences that indicate that the origin of the Nabat is Arabs, including: the saying of Imam, Commander of the Faithful x to Abu Al-Aswad Al-Dawali when he entered Basra: ((I have heard in your country this much and obscene melody)) (The Selected Chapters of the Sheikh Al-Mufid: 91), and certainly this was not The melody is from the Arabs who inhabited Basra after its Egyptianization. The Arabs used to deny this, as will come. Also, he definitely does not mean the small Indian community that used to live in Basra, and whom historians have expressed in Zat or Sabbija, for these were merchants, sailors and craftsmen who had a good residence in Basra and Islam came to Islam, but their numbers were few and may not allow a few dozen, it is unreasonable that Outrageous much melody was from this few! And the melody was not from the Persians, if they were found, then they are not from the Arabs, and it is far from that they learned Arabic from the Arabs who inhabited Basra during this short period of not more than twenty years. It is certain that he was referring to another large Arab group who had a melody in their words, namely the Nabat, as there are no large gatherings in Iraq other than them. Including: that Arab linguists and writers sometimes referred to examples of Nabat’s speech, indicating that they are Arabs, but they were Arabs who spoke the colloquial dialect as it is expressed in our time. However, the ancient Arabs expressed it in the Nabat language, meaning the vernacular language, and among these references is what he mentioned Abu Al-Faraj Al-Isfahani in Al-Aghani: 5/189 He said: ((It is not permissible in your singing to say: “You went” with the waw, and if you say: “You went” and did not extend it, the melody (music) and poetry would be cut off, and if you extended it to the ugliness of words and became the words of the Nabat. This means that the Nabateans were talking about satisfying the vowel and its heart, and wawa, and such as: turning the letter dad t, as stated by Ibn Manzur in the tongue of the Arabs, so they called nazur, natour, meaning a guard, and they turned the gym upside down, and they said lice instead of the word camel ... See: Lisan al-Arab: 7 / 436,11 / 252,15/36), and they call the beard (Rabi 'al-Abrar by al-Zamakhshari: 1/315), and they say in the sign (Lika) which is that (what is assigned to Ibn Saydah: 14/43), And for a cluster of grapes: sour. (The jurists' reminder of the sign al-Hili: 1/504) And al-Khatib al-Baghdadi said in Tarikh al-Baghdad: 5/416: (((Abu Huraira used to speak to his boys and his family in Nabatiyeh)), Abu Hurairah is not an Iraqi, but he is a Yemeni sidusi, and this is conclusive evidence that Nabatiyeh used to mean for the Arabs during the conquest what we today call colloquial. The reason for the melody in Nabat’s speech was due to their influence with the culture and language of the peoples
    Last edited by David Bush; 09-02-2020 at 11:08 PM.

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