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Thread: Are Iraqi Arabs Arabized Mesopotamians?

  1. #71
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    Yes Alalakh is not the most optimal source, too Levant_N-rich. Though modern Central Anatolian Greeks are a bit more Levant and CHG/Iran shifted and score less Barcin than BA samples from Central Anatolia. Wonder what happend there after the BA collapse.

    @DMXX Titris Hoyuk has rather high Levant_N score, only second to Alalakh of all averages within modern Turkey. Also it's looks like it's poor quality.

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  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    IMO the Druze have an Iranian/Kurdish shift, also explaining their higher Steppe. Not Caucasus shifted as someone mentioned here. Kurds and Iranians have about the same amount of CHG or sometimes lower as Levantines so it would not increase their CHG.
    Itís more likely a Turkish one because Turkey is right next door to the Levant while Iran is quite far.

  4. #73
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    Alalakh works well, but can we get an Iron Age or later Anatolian sample that can be used to help ascertain Greek admixture among these various populations(Levantines and Turks that is)? Because Alalakh seems too far back in time.

  5. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    This is exactly what I believe as well. I think Levantine Arab Muslims(and maybe some other groups like Druze) are a mixture of various native Levantines+primarily coastal Turks+Egyptians(especially among Palestinians)+Arabians.

    Mesopotamian Arab Muslims are a mixture of various native Mesopotamians+Iranians+Arabians+a small amount of ancestry from Zanj slaves.

    I wonder if the steppe found among Levantine Christians is direclty from Greeks considering the Samaritans lack it.

    Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    Distance: 2.0232% / 0.02023163
    72.8 Samaritan
    14.6 Greek_Izmir
    12.6 Kura-Araxes

    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    Distance: 0.6912% / 0.00691157
    68.0 Samaritan
    17.0 Greek_Izmir
    15.0 Kura-Araxes

    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    Distance: 0.8577% / 0.00857698
    68.6 Samaritan
    16.6 Greek_Izmir
    14.8 Kura-Araxes

    Target: Lebanese_Christian
    Distance: 1.1389% / 0.01138919
    73.4 Samaritan
    15.4 Greek_Izmir
    11.2 Kura-Araxes

    Does anyone know of a good proxy population for the pre-Turkic, pre-Greco Anatolian population living immediately north of the Levant? I want to do my best to account for a northern/CHG shift among these groups. I just used Kura-Araxes in this case to account for it but it could be better.
    I don't think steppe found among Christians is directly from Greeks but more diluted Greek admixture. Something perhaps from Cypriots or Anatolians mixed with Greeks.

  6. #75
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    A lot of Druze families hold the tradition that they originated in northern Syria and sought refuge with their co-religionists in Wadi al-Taym and Chouf, so it wouldn't be surprising if this shift is an Anatolian one.

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  8. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupriac View Post
    Central/south Asian ancestry:



    Potential increase in "South European/Anatolian" ancestry in late Roman period? :



    This aside, I do not wish to divert the thread from the original topic.
    No one was saying that a potential increase of southern European/Anatolian ancestry occurred in the late Roman era but later. In fact that very paper suggests there was further admixing with Turkish or Caucasian ancestry during the Ottoman period. They tried to model modern Lebanese with Lebanon_MA and modern Turkish/Caucasian populations. However I would argue that doing so produces dubious results since some of the modern populations, for example Armenian, would undoubtedly have a lot of Anatolian ancestry to begin with. Also what must be kept in mind is even in a small country like Lebanon there are differences in populations of different religious backgrounds and to try and model a modern Lebanese person with only another population in addition to Lebanese_MA does not respect the genetic differences between these groups. In fact one can, using G25, achieve just as good if not better results with Cypriot/Greek islander ancestry or Greco-Anatolian ancestry than with Turkish ancestry. I would invite you to join the conversation here:https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....banese+muslims as i would love to hear any other input you might have on the subject.

  9. #77
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    Assyria 1913-1923
    Druze—like the Alawis—come from the Assyrian Highlands as do both of their religions. They are consistently closer to Assyrians, Armenians, Trabzon Greeks, and Trabzon Turks than other Levantine groups.

    Additional:
    Most of the Druze, we have found, can be traced to the highest mountains in Turkey, northern Iraq and southern Armenia, and to the Zagros Mountain belt bordering Mount Ararat...

  10. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Yes Alalakh is not the most optimal source, too Levant_N-rich. Though modern Central Anatolian Greeks are a bit more Levant and CHG/Iran shifted and score less Barcin than BA samples from Central Anatolia. Wonder what happend there after the BA collapse.

    @DMXX Titris Hoyuk has rather high Levant_N score, only second to Alalakh of all averages within modern Turkey. Also it's looks like it's poor quality.
    Those Cappadocian Greeks from Kayiseri have an 'Armenian' like shift while the others coming from the more western regions of Anatolia are more Anatolia N shifted.Overall they are between Greek Trabzon/Armenia and Cyprus/Greek islanders.What is mystery to me is not so much their Levant but their steppe admixture.

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  12. #79
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    i think @Agamemnon already mentioned it earlier but the area of Mesopotamia had a drastic population reduction due to the Mongol invasion and loss of agricultural productivity.
    As far as I know there is still debate going on about the reasons for the agricultural decline. On one side people point to the damage done to the irrigation system by the Mongols during the invasion. On the other side people argue that soil salinization was the most important factor.

    Mesopotamia has always been a population sink. Mesopotamia had centuries of Arabization following the early Muslim conquests, but the genetic makeup of the region underwent a much larger shift later on. Iraq definitely had more population replacement than, for instance, Lebanon.

  13. #80
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    Another thing that’s strange, one wouldn’t be shocked to see high Persian ancestry in and around Baghdad(even though HulaguHan destroyed it) as well as Karbala/Najaf. Baghdad was a huge city which attracted many Persian philosophers, scientists, academics, etc. But we also see an Iranic shift in Iraqis from the most rural regions far from Baghdad particularly in the south. Sect cannot really be a factor because most Iraqi Shia are recent converts to Shiism and Iranians only converted en masse around the 16th century-for Persian ancestry to be so ubiquitous across central and southern Iraq, settlement had to be have been continuous.

    If anyone reading this has a tool for formal stats, it would be much appreciated in modeling these Iraqis. Use the following groups:
    1. Assyrian/Chaldean(and/or Mandean)
    2. Saudi or bedouin
    3. Iranians preferably from western or central Iran
    4. East African proxy(Ethiopian will do)
    Last edited by Cynic; 05-17-2021 at 05:34 AM.

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