Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Ancient mixed Genome in South Asia

  1. #1
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,969
    Sex
    Location
    US
    Ethnicity
    India Andhra Kamma Telugu
    Nationality
    US
    Y-DNA (P)
    HM82 Z5890+CTS8144+
    mtDNA (M)
    U2a1a
    Y-DNA (M)
    HM69

    United States of America India

    Post Ancient mixed Genome in South Asia

    When Shinde et all wrote about the IVC Periphery they were saying there is some common Holocene population with Iran_N and Anatolia_N

    Surprisingly, despite being largely of West Eurasian origin, the IVC people possibly didn't harbor any ancestry from the Neolithic farmers of the Fertile Crescent or even the Iranian Plateau.

    That's because, according to Shinde et al., their West Eurasian ancestors separated genetically from those of the early Holocene populations of what is now western and northern Iran around 12,000 BCE. In other words, well before the advent of agriculture.




    The Andaman Islanders who are relic population seem to harbour ancient mix like Yana_UP, Ust_Ishim etc.. which are present in anatolia_N too. When I checked my autosome map on MYTA, there is a segment matching Oetzi & Andaman Islander and also another segment matching Karasuk sample & Andaman Islander. The tribals in India are getting all kinds of Anatolia_N populations in small % which probably means there was a Holocene era mix as shown in the diagram above which existed prior to LN and Chalocolithic/EBA migrations which are present in caste populations. The MLBA era admix is more newer admix present in South Asia in many populations such as Brahmins and Khatri etc...
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to tipirneni For This Useful Post:

     kamil154 (08-28-2020),  misanthropy (08-29-2020),  parasar (08-27-2020),  ThaYamamoto (08-27-2020)

  3. #2
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    4,660
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L657 >BY160158
    mtDNA (M)
    M30g
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L657 >Y6
    mtDNA (P)
    U2C1

    How big are those segment matches? Can we get some data on what's relevant and what's not?

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to poi For This Useful Post:

     MonkeyDLuffy (08-27-2020)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,834
    Sex

    Just to refresh my memory, wasn't Shinde that's OIT?

  6. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,873

    The paper is called Shinde et al. because the sample comes from Shinde.
    But the paper was written by Reich and Narasimhan.
    Shinde et al.:
    "Our results also have linguistic implications. One theory for the
    origins of the now-widespread Indo-European languages in
    South Asia is the ‘‘Anatolian hypothesis,’’ which posits that the
    spread of these languages was propelled by movements of people
    from Anatolia across the Iranian plateau and into South Asia
    associated with the spread of farming. However, we have shown
    that the ancient South Asian farmers represented in the IVC Cline
    had negligible ancestry related to ancient Anatolian farmers as
    well as an Iranian-related ancestry component distinct from
    sampled ancient farmers and herders in Iran. Since language
    proxy spreads in pre-state societies are often accompanied by
    large-scale movements of people (Bellwood, 2013), these results
    argue against the model (Heggarty, 2019) of a trans-Iranianplateau
    route for Indo-European language spread into South
    Asia. However, a natural route for Indo-European languages to
    have spread into South Asia is from Eastern Europe via Central
    Asia in the first half of the 2nd millennium BCE, a chain of transmission
    that did occur as has been documented in detail with
    ancient DNA. The fact that the Steppe pastoralist ancestry in
    South Asia matches that in Bronze Age Eastern Europe (but
    not Western Europe [de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018; Narasimhan
    et al., 2019]) provides additional evidence for this theory, as it
    elegantly explains the shared distinctive features of Balto-Slavic
    and Indo-Iranian languages (Ringe et al., 2002).
    "

  7. #5
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,034
    Location
    Shangri La

    Afghanistan Jammu and Kashmir United States of America Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The paper is called Shinde et al. because the sample comes from Shinde.
    But the paper was written by Reich and Narasimhan.
    Shinde et al.:
    "Our results also have linguistic implications. One theory for the
    origins of the now-widespread Indo-European languages in
    South Asia is the ‘‘Anatolian hypothesis,’’ which posits that the
    spread of these languages was propelled by movements of people
    from Anatolia across the Iranian plateau and into South Asia
    associated with the spread of farming. However, we have shown
    that the ancient South Asian farmers represented in the IVC Cline
    had negligible ancestry related to ancient Anatolian farmers as
    well as an Iranian-related ancestry component distinct from
    sampled ancient farmers and herders in Iran. Since language
    proxy spreads in pre-state societies are often accompanied by
    large-scale movements of people (Bellwood, 2013), these results
    argue against the model (Heggarty, 2019) of a trans-Iranianplateau
    route for Indo-European language spread into South
    Asia. However, a natural route for Indo-European languages to
    have spread into South Asia is from Eastern Europe via Central
    Asia in the first half of the 2nd millennium BCE, a chain of transmission
    that did occur as has been documented in detail with
    ancient DNA. The fact that the Steppe pastoralist ancestry in
    South Asia matches that in Bronze Age Eastern Europe (but
    not Western Europe [de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018; Narasimhan
    et al., 2019]) provides additional evidence for this theory, as it
    elegantly explains the shared distinctive features of Balto-Slavic
    and Indo-Iranian languages (Ringe et al., 2002).
    "
    Thats not what Shinde is saying at all in his recent press conferences or videos , I have seen ample videos and conferences where he and Rai say the complete opposite with gusto, in fact its all ground work for that indigenous R1a paper which was going to be released but its highly doubtful now and is under peer review, since those Fatyanovo samples killed any remaining chance of that. Shinde has gone on the record saying the IVC people were Sanskrit speakers.



    What is surprising is that, in a press conference held in New Delhi on September 6 to explain their findings from Rakhigarhi soon after the papers were published online, coauthors Vasant Shinde, archeologist and vice-chancellor of Deccan College, Pune, and Niraj Rai, head of the ancient DNA laboratory at the Birbal Sahni Institute of Paleosciences, Lucknow, advanced the contested ‘Out of India’ theory. Outlook wrote that they also attempted to “disprove the ‘Aryan’ or Steppe migration theory saying that India has always been an indigenous population”.


    The authors of two scientific papers about Aryan migration endorsed a theory closer to the cultural triumphalism of the political right while the papers had themselves disfavoured it.


    https://thewire.in/the-sciences/rakh...-vasant-shinde

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pegasus For This Useful Post:

     deuterium_1 (08-29-2020),  MonkeyDLuffy (08-28-2020)

  9. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,873

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Thats not what Shinde is saying at all in his recent press conferences or videos , I have seen ample videos and conferences where he and Rai say the complete opposite with gusto, in fact its all ground work for that indigenous R1a paper which was going to be released but its highly doubtful now and is under peer review, since those Fatyanovo samples killed any remaining chance of that. Shinde has gone on the record saying the IVC people were Sanskrit speakers.



    What is surprising is that, in a press conference held in New Delhi on September 6 to explain their findings from Rakhigarhi soon after the papers were published online, coauthors Vasant Shinde, archeologist and vice-chancellor of Deccan College, Pune, and Niraj Rai, head of the ancient DNA laboratory at the Birbal Sahni Institute of Paleosciences, Lucknow, advanced the contested ‘Out of India’ theory. Outlook wrote that they also attempted to “disprove the ‘Aryan’ or Steppe migration theory saying that India has always been an indigenous population”.


    The authors of two scientific papers about Aryan migration endorsed a theory closer to the cultural triumphalism of the political right while the papers had themselves disfavoured it.


    https://thewire.in/the-sciences/rakh...-vasant-shinde
    That was my point - that the paper was entirely written by Reich and Narasimhan.
    Shinde does not believe in what they wrote despite his listed position as first author.

    Shinde's thinking is more in line with mine, RCO on this forum, and others who do not think that Steppe had much to do with the early IE spread in the subcontinent. R1a/Steppe in my opinion is more related to the Indo-Slav branch and not to the Graecio-Armenian-Aryan one.

  10. #7
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,034
    Location
    Shangri La

    Afghanistan Jammu and Kashmir United States of America Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    That was my point - that the paper was entirely written by Reich and Narasimhan.
    Shinde does not believe in what they wrote despite his listed position as first author.

    Shinde's thinking is more in line with mine, RCO on this forum, and others who do not think that Steppe had much to do with the early IE spread in the subcontinent. R1a/Steppe in my opinion is more related to the Indo-Slav branch and not to the Graecio-Armenian-Aryan one.
    The earliest spread would still be related with Steppe MLBA, even the earliest sample from 1600 BC prefer Corded Ware related sources as it should be, ditto those Megiddo/Mittani outliers from the same period. Afaik there is no Centum like shift in the most archaic Indo Aryan languages if anything they actually show more affinity esp in terms of sound structure with Baltic languages.
    Last edited by pegasus; 08-28-2020 at 01:50 AM.

  11. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to pegasus For This Useful Post:

     Alain (08-28-2020),  Coldmountains (08-28-2020),  deuterium_1 (08-29-2020),  MonkeyDLuffy (08-28-2020),  parasar (08-28-2020)

  12. #8
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    4,660
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L657 >BY160158
    mtDNA (M)
    M30g
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L657 >Y6
    mtDNA (P)
    U2C1

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    That was my point - that the paper was entirely written by Reich and Narasimhan.
    Shinde does not believe in what they wrote despite his listed position as first author.

    Shinde's thinking is more in line with mine, RCO on this forum, and others who do not think that Steppe had much to do with the early IE spread in the subcontinent. R1a/Steppe in my opinion is more related to the Indo-Slav branch and not to the Graecio-Armenian-Aryan one.
    For that to work, VedicSanskrit speakers would not be from the “Indo-Slav” steppe herders, but a separate(unidentifiable so far) branch from elsewhere?

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to poi For This Useful Post:

     Coldmountains (08-28-2020),  MonkeyDLuffy (08-28-2020),  parasar (08-28-2020)

  14. #9
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,649
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93
    mtDNA (M)
    H28/W(M) : H1b5
    Y-DNA (M)
    Wife (P) : R1a-Z80

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    That was my point - that the paper was entirely written by Reich and Narasimhan.
    Shinde does not believe in what they wrote despite his listed position as first author.

    Shinde's thinking is more in line with mine, RCO on this forum, and others who do not think that Steppe had much to do with the early IE spread in the subcontinent. R1a/Steppe in my opinion is more related to the Indo-Slav branch and not to the Graecio-Armenian-Aryan one.
    Rather Proto-Indo-Aryans orginating from Fatyanovo-Abashevo were in the earliest phase in contact with some Para-Balto-Slavic groups or more likely some transitional groups in the west (Belarus, Ukraine). After this early CWC phase they would get in contact with Yamnaya/Poltavka groups and adopting some parts of their cultural package. These R1b steppe people would have affinities to Proto-Greeks and Proto-Armenians, so this would explain the linguistic similarities between Proto-Indo-Aryan and "Graeco-Armenian".

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     Alain (08-28-2020),  MonkeyDLuffy (08-28-2020),  pegasus (08-28-2020)

  16. #10
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,969
    Sex
    Location
    US
    Ethnicity
    India Andhra Kamma Telugu
    Nationality
    US
    Y-DNA (P)
    HM82 Z5890+CTS8144+
    mtDNA (M)
    U2a1a
    Y-DNA (M)
    HM69

    United States of America India
    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    How big are those segment matches? Can we get some data on what's relevant and what's not?
    On the matches of Aral Sea Karasuk total is 155.29 cM of 9 snps. 2 > 300 SNP length other > 100.
    Oetzi 35.7cM 3> 100
    Andaman is 89.31cm 6 segments

    Now the way these interact shows there is 1 Pheonician segment shared by Oetzi and Andaman



    There is a Cimmeran segment shared by Aral sea Karasuk and Andaman


    There is big Mauryan segment of 501SNP shared by Andaman with Saidu Sharif


    That shows Andaman islander had few bits of diverse admixture matching widely against the available sources even though classified as Chola which is only part of the total segments some of which are bigger than 300SNP/10cM. Similarly Karasuk also matches onto Cimmeran, Mauryan etc.. The Ghaznavid ones show up as Alan whereas the Saidu Sharif and Swat shows up as Mauryan. Since the some of the segments > 8cM which is what the usual matches onto GED for distant relatives or admixture shows up this is significant to show that there are layers of admixture in ancient Andaman islander which is connected to Levant/Anatolia and Central Asia which is shared even today among the populations.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. J1c in South Asia?
    By jdufh in forum J
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-01-2020, 06:08 PM
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-21-2020, 09:38 AM
  3. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-11-2019, 11:14 AM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-09-2016, 12:21 AM
  5. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-26-2013, 08:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •