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Thread: Genetic differences between West & East Germans

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    Genetic differences between West & East Germans

    Just wondering if anyone has any data on differing admixtures between West & East Germans. For example, maybe East Germans that inhabited areas pre 1945 that are now apart of Eastern Europe may have higher Slavic admixture than West Germans.
    23andme: 20.2% Scandinavian, 18.7% French & German, 2.9% British & Irish, 0.8% Finnish, 28.8% Eastern European, 4.8% Ashkenazic Jewish, 2.1% Southern European
    Paper: 50% Scandinavian(+JewishAncestry), 37.5% Eastern German, 12.5% Polish

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    Quote Originally Posted by btree View Post
    Just wondering if anyone has any data on differing admixtures between West & East Germans. For example, maybe East Germans that inhabited areas pre 1945 that are now apart of Eastern Europe may have higher Slavic admixture than West Germans.
    Of course, West Germans have usually less Slavic admixture, but going from Central to Eastern Germany, and on to the former Ostgebiete in what is now Poland and Russia, things get more tricky. Because some regions further West had significant local Slavic contribution, while some regions further East had not. That's because you have to look at the settlement history of a place. Where there local non-German inhabitants? How many? Were they integrated, did they flee or were pushed away? This is not the same anywhere. So you end up with villages in Silesia and Pommerania or East Prussia which were much more Western than places in Sachsen-Anhalt and Sachsen. Every region had its own settlement history. Where did the Germans come from mattered too. Because it made a difference whether they came from Brandenburg and Eastern Thuringia or Salzburg and Swabia for example.

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    I think the samples from Germany are limited,and since Germany is a big country i would not like to generalize.Western Germany is pretty much Germanicized-Frankicized native people of mostly Celtic roots?They are definitely more southern compared to north germanics,north dutch and Scandinavians.If you look gedmatch kits and some samples in G25 they plot closer to Belgians,Northern French and South Dutch.They do have Germanic(Probably Frankish?) admixture but overall most of their ancestry seems to be native.Eastern Germany on the other hand is more complicated IMO,and that's the reason we need samples from there especially during IA period.I think these lands were inhabit mostly by Wends and western Slavs.Later low Germanic speaking people arrived and mixed with them(Saxons).Also the Prussian legacy has definitely an impact there.Germanics come in contact with balts,slavs and movements from east to west was a frenquent phenomenon.I am pretty sure even from Phestphalia many native Germans trace their origins from eastern Prussian parts,that's why even some western germans might show some eastern shift.With a few words i would categorize western germans as Celto-Franks and eastern germans as Slavo-Saxons.Anyway,Germany is a very regionalist state and its not the best to generalize.Without samples you cannot be sure for anything!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I think the samples from Germany are limited,and since Germany is a big country i would not like to generalize.Western Germany is pretty much Germanicized-Frankicized native people of mostly Celtic roots?They are definitely more southern compared to north germanics,north dutch and Scandinavians.If you look gedmatch kits and some samples in G25 they plot closer to Belgians,Northern French and South Dutch.They do have Germanic(Probably Frankish?) admixture but overall most of their ancestry seems to be native.Eastern Germany on the other hand is more complicated IMO,and that's the reason we need samples from there especially during IA period.I think these lands were inhabit mostly by Wends and western Slavs.Later low Germanic speaking people arrived and mixed with them(Saxons).Also the Prussian legacy has definitely an impact there.Germanics come in contact with balts,slavs and movements from east to west was a frenquent phenomenon.I am pretty sure even from Phestphalia many native Germans trace their origins from eastern Prussian parts,that's why even some western germans might show some eastern shift.With a few words i would categorize western germans as Celto-Franks and eastern germans as Slavo-Saxons.Anyway,Germany is a very regionalist state and its not the best to generalize.Without samples you cannot be sure for anything!!!!
    Like with Eastern Germans, you can't generalise on Western Germans. There were pockets of Celto-Roman settlements which were Germanised, and there were areas in which new Germanic and Germano-Celtic from further North founded new villages. Again every region has its own settlement history. Considering the Germanic tribes involved, Franks were already and alliance of many earlier Germanic groups, uniting them under a new banner, with the South West being mainly Allemannic, for which the same is true.
    The Germanic impact seems to have been fairly hair in most areas, but so it was in the regions you mentioned, like Southern Dutch-Flemish in particular, but also Walloon and Northern French. So a large part of the similarity comes not just from the common Celto-Roman root, but also from the same Germanic (mostly Frankish) contribution.

    Especially in Switzerland, among German Swiss, you can observe how big the genetic, phenotypic, cultural and even dialectal differences can be. With one valley being "quite Allemannic" in character, the next one more "Welsh" (Romance). Some valleys became German speakers just recently, in the last hundreds of years, while others were new settlements founded by Allemannic settlers.

    You can't generalise there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Like with Eastern Germans, you can't generalise on Western Germans. There were pockets of Celto-Roman settlements which were Germanised, and there were areas in which new Germanic and Germano-Celtic from further North founded new villages. Again every region has its own settlement history. Considering the Germanic tribes involved, Franks were already and alliance of many earlier Germanic groups, uniting them under a new banner, with the South West being mainly Allemannic, for which the same is true.
    The Germanic impact seems to have been fairly hair in most areas, but so it was in the regions you mentioned, like Southern Dutch-Flemish in particular, but also Walloon and Northern French. So a large part of the similarity comes not just from the common Celto-Roman root, but also from the same Germanic (mostly Frankish) contribution.

    Especially in Switzerland, among German Swiss, you can observe how big the genetic, phenotypic, cultural and even dialectal differences can be. With one valley being "quite Allemannic" in character, the next one more "Welsh" (Romance). Some valleys became German speakers just recently, in the last hundreds of years, while others were new settlements founded by Allemannic settlers.

    You can't generalise there too.
    I agree with all, with exception one. I dont believe Romans had a genetic impact above North Italy. They probably left Some limited influences In southern France but overall France and Western Germany does not really seems to have Roman Genetics. Bavaria and Swabia or Swiss are not the most sampled region not only about ancient but also for modern.So,i am not sure if the Roman impact there is Huge. They might have Some but not crazy things.I think Rhineland was inhabit mostly by Gauls, Belgian like people and the Romans didnt really had a big genetic impact there. Later Germanics arrived but still their impact is not Huge, Ofc much more compared to the former.
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 09-07-2020 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by btree View Post
    Just wondering if anyone has any data on differing admixtures between West & East Germans. For example, maybe East Germans that inhabited areas pre 1945 that are now apart of Eastern Europe may have higher Slavic admixture than West Germans.
    What is known from history, Germans assimilated Old Prussians, which were a Baltic people, related to Lithuanians,Latvians of our days.
    Old Prussians were somewhere in NE Germany,or so.
    In NE Germany are mentioned at least some West Slavic tribes,also.
    I know from some private FB group, that Germans ethnics from Pomerania had around 20% or so N1 paternal lines, those being from assimilated Old Prussians.
    As expected, these Old Prussians were very Eastern Europeans, as DNA.

    Here is a small map that I find at a quick search on Google:


    Those Old Prussians should have been R1A-Z280 and N1 Y_DNA mostly, West Slavs, mostly R1A-M458.
    All these Y DNAs were seen in Ethnic Germans from Pomerania (N1,R1A-Z280,R1A-M458).
    If you look at R1A concentration in Germany, I guess it was peaking in Pomerania Germans (R1A-Z280+R1A-M458).
    Depends from where in Germany you have your ancestry, I understand that Berlin area still has significant R1A.
    Bavaria had some R1A-Z280 no idea about R1A-M458,but not so significant.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 09-07-2020 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I agree with all, with exception one. I dont believe Romans had a genetic impact above North Italy. They probably left Some limited influences In southern France but overall France and Western Germany does not really seems to have Roman Genetics. Bavaria and Swabia or Swiss are not the most sampled region not only about ancient but also for modern.So,i am not sure if the Roman impact there is Huge. They might have Some but not crazy things.I think Rhineland was inhabit mostly by Gauls, Belgian like people and the Romans didnt really had a big genetic impact there. Later Germanics arrived but still their impact is not Huge, Ofc much more compared to their former.
    I think the more data comes in, the more clear it will be that "the Romans" had a significant impact and the Germanics an even larger one. But with "Celto-Romans" I simply mean the mixture which came up after the Roman conquest. This includes both local Celts, as well as true Romans, but also people from anywhere in the Roman empire which made it to the region and even some tribal immigrants like Germanics, Thracians, Sarmatians etc. So a "rather mixed bunch" overall, with the Celtic substrate being still the dominant component in most places, but not necessarily everywhere.

    Really, I would say we have to look at every place, at every region and settlement on its own. Its the same in Italy, with the Aosta valley and Bergamo being not the same even with the neighbouring regions. There were Romance speakers in parts of Western Germany up to fairly recent times, where in others there was almost a tabula rasa, with completely new settlements and the old population being largely replaced. For example Moselle Romance speakers up to the 10th-12th century:
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moselromanische_Sprache

    On the other hand there were significant Germanic settlements in areas which being now Romance speaking. So it goes both ways.

    Concerning Eastern Germany, this is an old map from Wikipedia (1905), I know better ones, but this one still gives an impression:


    You can see that some zones from the German settlement of the East were more mixed than others, like Southern East Prussia more so than Northern or Southern Pommerania more than the core of Silesia and Northern Bohemia. Silesia is particularly interesting, as inside of the wider Silesian region, the differences could be huge, with some settlements being almost exclusively German derived, while others were heavily mixed or even remained so up to modern tims and to this day in some cases.
    Last edited by Riverman; 09-07-2020 at 01:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I agree with all, with exception one. I dont believe Romans had a genetic impact above North Italy. They probably left Some limited influences In southern France but overall France and Western Germany does not really seems to have Roman Genetics. Bavaria and Swabia or Swiss are not the most sampled region not only about ancient but also for modern.So,i am not sure if the Roman impact there is Huge. They might have Some but not crazy things.I think Rhineland was inhabit mostly by Gauls, Belgian like people and the Romans didnt really had a big genetic impact there. Later Germanics arrived but still their impact is not Huge, Ofc much more compared to the former.
    i wouldnt exclude the Veeramah et al ACD-type people (female exogamy) as playing a notable role, along with, but lesser than, rest provincials as also seen in Veeramah et al rather than pre-roman pops Excluding individuals with ACD and two women with Greek/Anatolian ancestry, our samples from Early Medieval Bavaria can be genetically characterized as typically northern/central European. It is perhaps surprising that no local individual was found to share recent common genetic ancestry with a Roman soldier living in the same area ∼200 y earlier

    keeping in mind that the collapse of the Roman frontier also included a thourough abandonment beg. with the Limes (Limesfall) 259/60 and lastly under Odoacer's brother Hunulf leading 'the exodus' after defeating the ever raiding Rugii; in other words, concerning South germany, a development of the EMA by populations as seen in Veeramah et al

    and not forgetting the Slavic(Wendish) element as NE Bavaria and East germany was not just 'somewhat slavic' but fully Slavic, proper homeland, though the former part of the Empire since Charlemagne

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Bavaria had some R1A-Z280 no idea about R1A-M458,but not so significant.
    not significant but presentable
    only published data i know (*pre-war pop.) 2013 Rębała et al

    Bayern (n=218)
    _ 12.3% R1a1a M17+/M198+
    __ 4.5% R1a1a M17*+ 10/218
    ___ 7.7% R1a1a1b1a1 M458+ 17/218

    *not corupted by post-war refugees as other data
    app. swabian(?augsburg) part of Bavaria
    Last edited by alexfritz; 09-07-2020 at 10:55 PM.
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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    @Alex: I think Roman provincials played a big part. Its actually primarily in some Slavic regions the continuity was more disrupted. This is particularly evident from place names. Germanic broke the cities down, but left many villages and towns largely intact if they didnt bothers them and could be used. Slavs and especially the Avars teared more down.

    The place name as well as settlement continuity was much stronger in only Germanic regions with less of a change after the initial takeover. The big exception for large scale local survival in a clarify Slavic territory is especially Western and Southern Bohemia, which seems to have been more indirectly Slavicised probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    i wouldnt exclude the Veeramah et al ACD-type people (female exogamy) as playing a notable role, along with, but lesser than, rest provincials as also seen in Veeramah et al rather than pre-roman pops Excluding individuals with ACD and two women with Greek/Anatolian ancestry, our samples from Early Medieval Bavaria can be genetically characterized as typically northern/central European. It is perhaps surprising that no local individual was found to share recent common genetic ancestry with a Roman soldier living in the same area ∼200 y earlier

    keeping in mind that the collapse of the Roman frontier also included a thourough abandonment beg. with the Limes (Limesfall) 259/60 and lastly under Odoacer's brother Hunulf leading 'the exodus' after defeating the ever raiding Rugii; in other words, concerning South germany, a development of the EMA by populations as seen in Veeramah et al

    and not forgetting the Slavic(Wendish) element as NE Bavaria and East germany was not just 'somewhat slavic' but fully Slavic, proper homeland, though the former part of the Empire since Charlemagne



    not significant but presentable
    only published data i know (*pre-war pop.) 2013 Rębała et al

    Bayern (n=218)
    _ 12.3% R1a1a M17+/M198+
    __ 4.5% R1a1a M17*+ 10/218
    ___ 7.7% R1a1a1b1a1 M458+ 17/218

    *not corupted by post-war refugees as other data
    app. swabian(?augsburg) part of Bavaria
    I was actually wrong and i want to correct it.The eastern parts of Germany and more specifically Pomerania were inhabit first by Germanics(probably east germanics).During barbarian migrations,most of the infamous east germanics tribes left those lands and Slavs arrived.Slavs come later and mixed with the native germanic population,witch their origins are not well known.I am not sure if the germanics there were saxons or eastern germanics(i mean when Slavs-Wends arrived).

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