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Thread: Albanian Malesors and Montenegrin Brda: Tribal Relations, Mixing & History

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    Albanian Malesors and Montenegrin Brda: Tribal Relations, Mixing & History

    One of the best thread topics for Montenegro.

    In Crmnica in particular there existed a sort of symbiosis between Montenegrins and Albanians in language and likely tribal mixing.

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    This is indeed an interesting topic. In Crmnica there is the Sotonici tribe that has a story of descending from Dukajin but I find that to be unlikely since almost all of the of Sotonici men that have tested so far belong to J2a-Z6065 which of course is not present among Albanian tribe results from Dukajin. I know that in the Brda area of Montenegro the Kuci tribe had a majority Serbian speaking Orthodox Christian component and a minority Albanian speaking Roman Catholic component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    This is indeed an interesting topic. In Crmnica there is the Sotonici tribe that has a story of descending from Dukajin but I find that to be unlikely since almost all of the of Sotonici men that have tested so far belong to J2a-Z6065 which of course is not present among Albanian tribe results from Dukajin. I know that in the Brda area of Montenegro the Kuci tribe had a majority Serbian speaking Orthodox Christian component and a minority Albanian speaking Roman Catholic component.
    Crmnica apparently was a place of slavic-albanian symbiosis. I'm from Shestan, i'm not sure if it was part of this symbiosis, but it's likely. Montenegrins from Crmnica, likely have albanian input and in shestan probably albanians have slavic input. This can explain phenotypical differences of Montenegrins and Albanians there from other Montenegrins and Albanians. Or it could be natural phenotype. Things like this are hard to determine, and DNA doesn't pick it up. 23andme and most other tests have a hard time distinguishing, paleo-balkanic vs slavic.

    It seems inter-marriages between slavs and albanians were kind of common in Montenegro between some tribes and families, and not so much in Kosove. I am unaware of when this mixing did occur in Montenegro. From what I've read it was done in the 14th to 15th centuries, but it could have also occurred centuries after that too.
    Last edited by gjenetiks; 09-09-2020 at 05:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    Crmnica apparently was a place of slavic-albanian symbiosis. I'm from Shestan, i'm not sure if it was part of this symbiosis, but it's likely. Montenegrins from Crmnica, likely have albanian input and in shestan probably albanians have slavic input. This can explain phenotypical differences of Montenegrins and Albanians there from other Montenegrins and Albanians. Or it could be natural phenotype. Things like this are hard to determine, and DNA doesn't pick it up. 23andme and most other tests have a hard time distinguishing, paleo-balkanic vs slavic.

    It seems inter-marriages between slavs and albanians were kind of common in Montenegro between some tribes and families, and not so much in Kosove. I am unaware of when this mixing did it occur in Montenegro. From what I've read it was done in the 14th to 15th centuries, but it could have also occurred centuries after that too.
    Yes it makes sense that Crmnica could be an area where mixing between Slavic/Serbian speaking Montenegrins and Albanian speakers occurred given it's location....In Kuci I read before that the famous hero Marko Miljanov Popovic was mixed himself. His father was a Slavic/Serbian speaking Kuci man and his mother was Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Yes it makes sense that Crmnica could be an area where mixing between Slavic/Serbian speaking Montenegrins and Albanian speakers occurred given it's location....In Kuci I read before that the famous hero Marko Miljanov Popovic was mixed himself. His father was a Slavic/Serbian speaking Kuci man and his mother was Albanian.
    Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuēi, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuēi, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.
    His father was certainly a Popovići from the Drekalovići which as you mentioned belongs to Old Kuci.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuēi, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.
    Is the Drekalovići E-V13 clade closely elated to the E-V13 clades among any Albanians?

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    It's interesting, there is a village in podgoric called Progonovići. Might there be any connection with the ancient albanian Progoni noble family?

    https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progonovići

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    It's interesting, there is a village in podgoric called Progonovići. Might there be any connection with the ancient albanian Progoni noble family?

    https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progonovići
    The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of Lješanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Šinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe Gojėmadhi.

    Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of Lješanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, Nikšić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

    Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-10-2020 at 05:55 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of Lješanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Šinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe Gojėmadhi.

    Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of Lješanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, Nikšić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

    Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.
    Very interesting. I believe Novak Djokovic is from Ozrinici tribe, and is I2. I think it's possible he has Albanian admixture too.

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