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Thread: Albanian Malesors and Montenegrin Brda: Tribal Relations, Mixing & History

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    Albanian Malesors and Montenegrin Brda: Tribal Relations, Mixing & History

    One of the best thread topics for Montenegro.

    In Crmnica in particular there existed a sort of symbiosis between Montenegrins and Albanians in language and likely tribal mixing.

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    This is indeed an interesting topic. In Crmnica there is the Sotonici tribe that has a story of descending from Dukajin but I find that to be unlikely since almost all of the of Sotonici men that have tested so far belong to J2a-Z6065 which of course is not present among Albanian tribe results from Dukajin. I know that in the Brda area of Montenegro the Kuci tribe had a majority Serbian speaking Orthodox Christian component and a minority Albanian speaking Roman Catholic component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    This is indeed an interesting topic. In Crmnica there is the Sotonici tribe that has a story of descending from Dukajin but I find that to be unlikely since almost all of the of Sotonici men that have tested so far belong to J2a-Z6065 which of course is not present among Albanian tribe results from Dukajin. I know that in the Brda area of Montenegro the Kuci tribe had a majority Serbian speaking Orthodox Christian component and a minority Albanian speaking Roman Catholic component.
    Crmnica apparently was a place of slavic-albanian symbiosis. I'm from Shestan, i'm not sure if it was part of this symbiosis, but it's likely. Montenegrins from Crmnica, likely have albanian input and in shestan probably albanians have slavic input. This can explain phenotypical differences of Montenegrins and Albanians there from other Montenegrins and Albanians. Or it could be natural phenotype. Things like this are hard to determine, and DNA doesn't pick it up. 23andme and most other tests have a hard time distinguishing, paleo-balkanic vs slavic.

    It seems inter-marriages between slavs and albanians were kind of common in Montenegro between some tribes and families, and not so much in Kosove. I am unaware of when this mixing did occur in Montenegro. From what I've read it was done in the 14th to 15th centuries, but it could have also occurred centuries after that too.
    Last edited by gjenetiks; 09-09-2020 at 05:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    Crmnica apparently was a place of slavic-albanian symbiosis. I'm from Shestan, i'm not sure if it was part of this symbiosis, but it's likely. Montenegrins from Crmnica, likely have albanian input and in shestan probably albanians have slavic input. This can explain phenotypical differences of Montenegrins and Albanians there from other Montenegrins and Albanians. Or it could be natural phenotype. Things like this are hard to determine, and DNA doesn't pick it up. 23andme and most other tests have a hard time distinguishing, paleo-balkanic vs slavic.

    It seems inter-marriages between slavs and albanians were kind of common in Montenegro between some tribes and families, and not so much in Kosove. I am unaware of when this mixing did it occur in Montenegro. From what I've read it was done in the 14th to 15th centuries, but it could have also occurred centuries after that too.
    Yes it makes sense that Crmnica could be an area where mixing between Slavic/Serbian speaking Montenegrins and Albanian speakers occurred given it's location....In Kuci I read before that the famous hero Marko Miljanov Popovic was mixed himself. His father was a Slavic/Serbian speaking Kuci man and his mother was Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Yes it makes sense that Crmnica could be an area where mixing between Slavic/Serbian speaking Montenegrins and Albanian speakers occurred given it's location....In Kuci I read before that the famous hero Marko Miljanov Popovic was mixed himself. His father was a Slavic/Serbian speaking Kuci man and his mother was Albanian.
    Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuçi, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuçi, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.
    His father was certainly a Popovići from the Drekalovići which as you mentioned belongs to Old Kuci.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    His father was certainly a Popovići from the Drekalovići which as you mentioned belongs to Old Kuci.
    The Drekalovići are in fact also known as “Novo Kuči” or “New Kuči”, however what is interesting is that both the Drekalovići and Old Kuči are primarily E-BY165837. So they ultimately share the same paternal ancestor that lived ~550 ybp, or during the late 15th century. The distinction between the brotherhoods probably represents two waves of movement by the Kuçi from northwestern Albania during the Medieval.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The Drekalovići are in fact also known as “Novo Kuči” or “New Kuči”, however what is interesting is that both the Drekalovići and Old Kuči are primarily E-BY165837. So they ultimately share the same paternal ancestor that lived ~550 ybp, or during the late 15th century. The distinction between the brotherhoods probably represents two waves of movement by the Kuçi from northwestern Albania during the Medieval.
    Ahhh my bad for some reason I thought that the Drekalovići had a tradition of descending from Old Kuči.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Ahhh my bad for some reason I thought that the Drekalovići had a tradition of descending from Old Kuči.
    There are a number of stories and oral traditions in regards to the origin of the Drekalovići. One of the most prominent is that they descend from the Albanian Kastrioti family through Gjon Kastrioti II, the son of Skanderbeg, whom allegedly left a wife and son behind when fleeing to Italy. This story is obviously fictional since Gjon II was only 12 when he fled to Italy. There is also a tradition among some of the Old Kuči that the Drekalovići are in fact descended from them through a marriage with a woman from the Kelmendi. However, what should be noted is that the Old Kuči and Drekalovići did intermarry so it's clear that most saw the two as either separate or very distant. Another tradition states that they came from the Berisha of North Albania, which is why they were also known as Berisha i Kuq ("Red Berisha") by Albanian-speakers.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    It's interesting, there is a village in podgoric called Progonovići. Might there be any connection with the ancient albanian Progoni noble family?

    https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progonovići

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