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Thread: Albanian Malesors and Montenegrin Brda: Tribal Relations, Mixing & History

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    It's interesting, there is a village in podgoric called Progonovići. Might there be any connection with the ancient albanian Progoni noble family?

    https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progonovići
    The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of Lješanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Šinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe GojŰmadhi.

    Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of Lješanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, Nikšić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

    Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-10-2020 at 05:55 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of LjeÜanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Őinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe GojŰmadhi.

    Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of LjeÜanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, NikÜić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

    Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.
    Very interesting. I believe Novak Djokovic is from Ozrinici tribe, and is I2. I think it's possible he has Albanian admixture too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    Very interesting. I believe Novak Djokovic is from Ozrinici tribe, and is I2. I think it's possible he has Albanian admixture too.
    Indeed, his paternal origins is from the Ozrinići tribe and he is I2a-PH908 like many others that descend from this tribe. His family belongs to the Damjanovići brotherhood from the village of Čevo, though one of his ancestors named Đoko Damjanović ended up settling in Jasenovo Polje to the north of Nikšić. From there they moved to Kosovo in 1928, and then Belgrade in 1981.
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    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

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    It would extremely cool to find out what the Jashari's haplogroup is. I've seen rumours that the Jashari's descend paternally from Kuqi and are E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    It would extremely cool to find out what the Jashari's haplogroup is. I've seen rumours that the Jashari's descend paternally from Kuqi and are E-V13.
    Yes, the Jashari family of Prekaz belong to the Kuši tribe. The Kuši of Drenica can be found in the following villages: Prekaz, Prekaz i EpŰrm, GalicŰ, TŰrnac, MikushnicŰ, Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme. The villages all claim to stem from the same paternal ancestor, and so do not intermarry. The Kuši of Prekaz, specifically, claim a certain PrekŰ Kuši as their common ancestor. Oral tradition states that Preka also had three brothers: Obri, Luta and Biba. the villages of Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme claim ancestry from Obri. Whilst Luta is said to have settled in the village of LutogllavŰ near Peja. Biba himself remained in Montenegro, though his son Kola is considered to be the ancestor of the families from TŰrnac and GalicŰ. The brothers are said to have arrived sometime during the end of the 17th or start of the 18th century and were Catholics.

    A guy from TŰrnac has tested with the Albanian Y-DNA Project and is E-L241. I believe one from GalicŰ has tested via 23andme and also belonged to that haplogroup. So it's pretty clear that the Jashari, and the rest of the Kuši of Drenica, are in fact E-L241. What's interesting is that this group has yet to be found among the Kuši of Montenegro or Albania.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-10-2020 at 09:35 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Yes, the Jashari family of Prekaz belong to the Kuši tribe. The Kuši of Drenica can be found in the following villages: Prekaz, Prekaz i EpŰrm, GalicŰ, TŰrnac, MikushnicŰ, Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme. The villages all claim to stem from the same paternal ancestor, and so do not intermarry. The Kuši of Prekaz, specifically, claim a certain PrekŰ Kuši as their common ancestor. Oral tradition states that Preka also had three brothers: Obri, Luta and Biba. the villages of Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme claim ancestry from Obri. Whilst Luta is said to have settled in the village of LutogllavŰ near Peja. Biba himself remained in Montenegro, though his son Kola is considered to be the ancestor of the families from TŰrnac and GalicŰ. The brothers are said to have arrived sometime during the end of the 17th or start of the 18th century and were Catholics.

    A guy from TŰrnac has tested with the Albanian Y-DNA Project and is E-L241. I believe one from GalicŰ has tested via 23andme and also belonged to that haplogroup. So it's pretty clear that the Jashari, and the rest of the Kuši of Drenica, are in fact E-L241. What's interesting is that this group has yet to be found among the Kuši of Montenegro or Albania.
    Yeah I thought maybe they're might be a connection with the Kuqi from Montenegro in Koje / Triesh , but guess not. Rare kuqi indeed.

  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of Lješanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Šinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe GojŰmadhi.

    Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of Lješanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, Nikšić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

    Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.
    Yeah there are definitely old Albanian influences in many parts of Montenegro I think. Personally I think that the Montenegrin tribes were made up of a number of different groups that came together and mixed many centuries ago. They are mainly a mix of Slavic, Vlach and Albanian ancestries I think. There are likely other influences as well but the combination of Slavic, Vlach and Albanian ancestries are in the majority in varying degrees depending on which region in Montenegro a tribe comes from. For example I think that Albanian influences are stronger in the Brda and Crmnica areas while in most of Old Montenegro Vlach influence is likely stronger. The coastal areas probably have even more complex ancestral combinations. All of these influences homogenized though quite a long time ago and became by far majority Slavic speaking.

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    Yeah I thought maybe they're might be a connection with the Kuqi from Montenegro in Koje / Triesh , but guess not. Rare kuqi indeed.
    Two guys from Koja e Kušit have tested through the Albanian Y-DNA Project and both turned out to be E-BY165837 which is also typical for the Kuči/Kuši. Though it should be noted that both of these samples come from families that are regarded as being native or local to the area, so the result was to be expected. A large part of Koja e Kušit seems to trace their origin back to Kelmend, around VukŰl particularly. One brotherhood in particular also are believed to have arrived from SelcŰ, though some say they are with further origin from Kastrat. I match one on 23andme, and he is J2b-L283.

    As for Trieshi, they were a tribe of their own. Separate from Kuši, although they did maintain pretty good relations with them historically. The main brotherhood of the Trieshi, the Bankeqi, so far seem to primarily be E-BY168279+ which is just upstream of BY165837. So their cluster and that of the Kuši diverged ~1,350 ybp. They seem to also cluster with some V13 Albanians from the Gruda, as well as one from Tirana who is the sample shown on Yfull. In Triesh there are also brotherhoods such as the Bekaj and Delaj, the Bekaj seem to be mainly R-Z2705>BY38894* and the same seems to be the case for the Delaj. R-BY38894* is also present among the Gruda. Though interestingly one family from the Bekaj ended up testing as J-Y19093.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-11-2020 at 12:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Two guys from Koja e Kušit have tested through the Albanian Y-DNA Project and both turned out to be E-BY165837 which is also typical for the Kuči/Kuši. Though it should be noted that both of these samples come from families that are regarded as being native or local to the area, so the result was to be expected. A large part of Koja e Kušit seems to trace their origin back to Kelmend, around VukŰl particularly. One brotherhood in particular also are believed to have arrived from SelcŰ, though some say they are with further origin from Kastrat. I match one on 23andme, and he is J2b-L283.

    As for Trieshi, they were a tribe of their own. Separate from Kuši, although they did maintain pretty good relations with them historically. The main brotherhood of the Trieshi, the Bankeqi, so far seem to primarily be E-BY168279+ which is just upstream of BY165837. So their cluster and that of the Kuši diverged ~1,350 ybp. They seem to also cluster with some V13 Albanians from the Gruda, as well as one from Tirana who is the sample shown on Yfull. In Triesh there are also brotherhoods such as the Bekaj and Delaj, the Bekaj seem to be mainly R-Z2705>BY38894* and the same seems to be the case for the Delaj. R-BY38894* is also present among the Gruda. Though interestingly one family from the Bekaj ended up testing as J-Y19093.
    V13 Albanians from Grude tested and got E-BY168279+? I think it would make it clear that some Albos from Grude originally came from Triesh.

    Interesting that from oral traditions, large part of Trieshi claim descent from Ban Keqi, brother of Lazer Keqi apparently founder of Hoti Tribe. But Hoti are I believe mostly or solely? J2b-L83. That oral theory's gotta be debunked then, since Bankeqi are E-BY168279+.
    Last edited by gjenetiks; 09-11-2020 at 06:53 PM.

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    It's interesting that the lulgjuraj in Grude, IIRC have 3 different haplos, V13, r1b, j2b. That lulgjuraj v13 might be triesh, I forgot which subclade they got. I believe I am related to lulgjuraj and frluckaj, though unsure from which side on my fathers side.

    It'd be nice to see a list of all the known families from that came from Grude, or Triesh. A lot that's out there is incomplete.
    Last edited by gjenetiks; 09-12-2020 at 02:47 AM.

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