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Thread: Who fought who at the battle of the Tollense Valley?

  1. #1
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    Who fought who at the battle of the Tollense Valley?

    I'm a little out of the loop about the Tollense valley samples, I think there were samples published earlier but now we have more with Burger et al. is that correct? Or are these just offical releases of earlier published samples?

    Most of the samples seem to be R1b-P312 clades and I2a2a, with an R1a singleton, I bet you all know this. It sucks that the archaeological background they gave of these samples was so bad.

    What I would like to know is your speculations who these people were and why they fought at this site. Which side do you think won this battle? To which sides do the currently published samples belong? To add to that, so far I've only seen information about the haplogroups and lactase persistence, but I haven't seen much about their autosomal makeup and potential relations to modern day populations. Have you guys looked into that already? Is there anything peculiar? Let me know!

    From the archaeological findings it seems like you had two sides fighting, and there was a major variation in regards to technology. Wooden clubs and bone arrows were found alongside bronze swords and overal better equipment. This could be due to a difference in rank but it could also be a reflection of the technological differences of the two opposing sides. The site also seemed to be in this region where the Urnfield, Nordic BA and the Lusatian culture meet or at least were in significant proximity to each other, and it occurred on a bridge, so I think this battle was ultimately related to trade or control over trade routes.

    One impression I've seen is that these I2a fellas might've been the locals with less advanced weaponry, perhaps them being some remant population of the Neolithic peoples (in the sense of their Y-dna). Another possibility, which I think is more likely is that the I2a guys are from modern day Germany, given that they have the same y-dna clades as the Neolithic Wartberg culture. In that case they would've been travelling with the P312 from the Tumulus/Urnfield cultural horizon which also explains why some samples seem quite southern. There was some isotopic evidence for a southern origin of some of the warriors there IIRC. But I have to say the idea of a Neolithic remnant population sounds really fucking cool lol (they still would've acquired steppe ancestry and what not, but perhaps they wouldn't be Indo-European speaking).

    Then we can also ask ourselves what WEZ56 was up to. I think it's likely this person came from the Lusatian culture, and given the massive influence from Tumulus/Urnfield on the Lusatian culture, I'd say that this guy would've fought with the Tumulus/Urnfield related group.

    So maybe all the samples we have so far are from the same side, the potentially Central European Tumulus/Urnfield squad and their associates. Or maybe it was R1b+I2a vs R1a?

    Anyways, this archaeological site is very interesting and this must've been a brutal and epic battle that was sung about for many of years. Imagine walking up to that mess three days after the battle had ended. The smell...

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    Every tribal society or chiefdom always had wars with neighbours/adversaries and sometimes they could kill prisioners and develop cannibalism rituals. Unfortunately the anthropological normal, they were just locals having fun killing each other. We have Colonial descriptions of native battles in land, rivers and sea with several thousand participants.
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    Do we have any archeological descriptions Of the skeletons?

    Also, I heard WEZ56 was specifically R1a-Z283, is that confirmed? And any info on downstream clades for this sample?

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    No need for offensive language.

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    Five years ago. Old European Culture blogger posted about the Tollensee Battle, he has very interesting pictures and proposes one possible explanation:

    http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.c...se-battle.html

    Of course, it could have been two neighbouring tribes fighting for resources control, or else a soccer match R1b against I2a that went very wrong

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    @All

    If you want these new Tollense samples in the Global25, then request the genotype data from these guys.

    [email protected]

    [email protected]
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 09-08-2020 at 03:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    @All

    If you want these new Tollense samples in the Global25, then request the genotype data from these guys.

    [email protected]

    [email protected]
    Is this helpful?

    https://seafile.rlp.net/d/2ac8729845/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    That looks like the old (four years old) data.

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  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    @All

    If you want these new Tollense samples in the Global25, then request the genotype data from these guys.

    [email protected]

    [email protected]
    They haven't released their genotype data? Damn....

    I'll send an e-mail in German maybe that will work lol

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  18. #10
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    For the archaeology-minded folks, here is some stuff to read:
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...79D6BF80743A19

    as well as:

    https://www.degruyter.com/view/journ...rticle-p29.xml

    Second article is about the presence of trade goods at the site, which suggest that maybe I wasn't talking out of my neck when I mentioned trade as one of the likelier causes of this battle

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