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Thread: Where did M And N originate?

  1. #1

    Where did M And N originate?

    And how/from where did they spread early on? I have no idea if the OOA migration was of L3, M and N or if it was of L3 and M and N arose in situ in Eurasia. I guess N looks unlikely to be African given its close to complete absence there(just talking about N and not derived clades like H, J and T which obviously exist in Africa). And the only clade of M in Africa is M1 which likely was a back migration with U6 (and ydna E?). And I think M1 also shares a more recent ancestor with M51 which has a South Eurasian distribution. But I have also read Eurasia doesn't have the L3 varieties that look like they could have given rise to M and N.

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    lol I thought this was about y dna - post deleted.

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    North Africa does have N1a ,N1b and X1 but it is the result of back migration probably from middle east .
    I believe OOA migrants would have had some kind of L3 but the origin of M and N is difficult to pinpoint . M does have a high basal diversity and it peaks in north east of india (may be just artificial since the south asian ,east asian and southeast asian lineages converge around there) . N doesnt show that much basal diversity as M but basal clades are more far widespread from neareast to oceania . So we could assume N is older and originated somewhere in west asia and was part of coastal(?) migration to oceania and somewhere along the journey M was born .
    I am also curious about Y haplogroup D and its relationship with M and N. I think it was once more widespread than present areas ,it seems restricted to isolated and somewhat inaccessible places .It is baffling that south asia has almost 0% D

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    North Africa does have N1a ,N1b and X1 but it is the result of back migration probably from middle east .
    I believe OOA migrants would have had some kind of L3 but the origin of M and N is difficult to pinpoint . M does have a high basal diversity and it peaks in north east of india (may be just artificial since the south asian ,east asian and southeast asian lineages converge around there) . N doesnt show that much basal diversity as M but basal clades are more far widespread from neareast to oceania . So we could assume N is older and originated somewhere in west asia and was part of coastal(?) migration to oceania and somewhere along the journey M was born .
    I am also curious about Y haplogroup D and its relationship with M and N. I think it was once more widespread than present areas ,it seems restricted to isolated and somewhat inaccessible places .It is baffling that south asia has almost 0% D
    I think L3 was born after in "Out of Africa' in Arabia/Near Eastl. Probably 'out of Africa' was done by Y-hg CT and Mt-hg L3'4'6 during first phase of favourable conditions of the Eemian (130-120,000BP).
    Y-haplogroup E and Mt L3 (xM, N) returned to Africa when the climatic conditions begin to deteriorate in Arabia/Near East.

    About 95-85,000 "Out of Arabia/near East" was done by the Y haplogroups C, D and F) and several L3 lineages. 3 mutations later one L3 lineage gave birth to M and 5 mutations later another L3 lineage gave birth to N, certainly in South India. From the basal M in the next 10,000 years probably more than one hundred deriving lineages and less lineages deriving from N, from India Peninsula to Indonesia and South China.

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  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    North Africa does have N1a ,N1b and X1 but it is the result of back migration probably from middle east .
    I believe OOA migrants would have had some kind of L3 but the origin of M and N is difficult to pinpoint . M does have a high basal diversity and it peaks in north east of india (may be just artificial since the south asian ,east asian and southeast asian lineages converge around there) . N doesnt show that much basal diversity as M but basal clades are more far widespread from neareast to oceania . So we could assume N is older and originated somewhere in west asia and was part of coastal(?) migration to oceania and somewhere along the journey M was born .
    I am also curious about Y haplogroup D and its relationship with M and N. I think it was once more widespread than present areas ,it seems restricted to isolated and somewhat inaccessible places .It is baffling that south asia has almost 0% D
    There is some D in the North isn't there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    I think L3 was born after in "Out of Africa' in Arabia/Near Eastl. Probably 'out of Africa' was done by Y-hg CT and Mt-hg L3'4'6 during first phase of favourable conditions of the Eemian (130-120,000BP).
    Y-haplogroup E and Mt L3 (xM, N) returned to Africa when the climatic conditions begin to deteriorate in Arabia/Near East.

    About 95-85,000 "Out of Arabia/near East" was done by the Y haplogroups C, D and F) and several L3 lineages. 3 mutations later one L3 lineage gave birth to M and 5 mutations later another L3 lineage gave birth to N, certainly in South India. From the basal M in the next 10,000 years probably more than one hundred deriving lineages and less lineages deriving from N, from India Peninsula to Indonesia and South China.
    But isnt L3 more diverse in east africa than in arabia .Apart from M and N which other L3 subclades could have originated from arabia ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    But isnt L3 more diverse in east africa than in arabia .Apart from M and N which other L3 subclades could have originated from arabia ?
    Arabia knew frequent very great droughts which make large areas desertic except some very rare surviving L3, L4 and L6 lineages in the mountains of Arabia (Asir, Yemen, Dhofar), it is enough to explain a weaker diversity.

    If I said "several L3 lineages" because there were probably more than 2 L3 lineages which left Arabia/Near East to South India, but only M and N survived.

    In a lot of old branches of Y and Mt haplogroups, there were a lot of sub-branches after each mutation , but altogether, only often an unique lineage has survived until nowadays. There were a lot of frequent bottlenecks which left 0 or 1 surviving lineages.
    Last edited by palamede; 02-09-2014 at 06:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    I think L3 was born after in "Out of Africa' in Arabia/Near Eastl. Probably 'out of Africa' was done by Y-hg CT and Mt-hg L3'4'6 during first phase of favourable conditions of the Eemian (130-120,000BP).
    Y-haplogroup E and Mt L3 (xM, N) returned to Africa when the climatic conditions begin to deteriorate in Arabia/Near East.

    About 95-85,000 "Out of Arabia/near East" was done by the Y haplogroups C, D and F) and several L3 lineages. 3 mutations later one L3 lineage gave birth to M and 5 mutations later another L3 lineage gave birth to N, certainly in South India. From the basal M in the next 10,000 years probably more than one hundred deriving lineages and less lineages deriving from N, from India Peninsula to Indonesia and South China.
    That is possible, and my overall line of thinking on this is similar to yours, but the likelihood is low at least for M, N and R (but not U). The coalescence times for M, N and R are much older than any known modern human presence in South India. Plus we already have verified N-R lineage descendant B 40000ybp in Tianyuan who had already diverged to a small extent from west Eurasians.
    Last edited by parasar; 02-09-2014 at 06:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I see two main movements of humans going west after the first 100000ybp OoA going east. First is N coming from SE Asia-Oceania followed by M from East Asia.


    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/32/

    As yet, I have seen nothing from current dna or ancient DNA that goes against my line of thinking as near eastern current and ancient DNA does include L(x M, N) lines.
    If there was a 100 kya OoA expansion, it is possible that this population did not leave any trace in modern yDNA or mtDNA. The paper on Saudi-Arab mtDNA that you linked to suggests that the current population is a mix of recent influences from West Asia (85%), Africa (12%) and India (3%), and they did not find "archaic N and/or M autochthonous lineages in the Arabian Peninsula." It probably is not possible to determine the mtDNA signature of the 100 to 50 kya population of Arabia. But there is strong evidence of L3 originating in Africa, and based on mtDNA age estimates, evidence of L3 arriving in Arabia and perhaps SW Asia between 70 to 60 kya. I don't see the evidence for East Asian or Oceanic origins of M and N. It seems simpler to think of M and N originating and with its earliest expansion in Arabia, southwest Asia and the Indian subcontinent, and then N expanding westward into Europe, the Near East and northern Asia around 50 to 40 kya.

    Current age estimates for mtDNA would have to be biased significantly low to be consistent with 100 ky as the major OoA expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    I think L3 was born after in "Out of Africa' in Arabia/Near Eastl. Probably 'out of Africa' was done by Y-hg CT and Mt-hg L3'4'6 during first phase of favourable conditions of the Eemian (130-120,000BP). Y-haplogroup E and Mt L3 (xM, N) returned to Africa when the climatic conditions begin to deteriorate in Arabia/Near East.
    If L3 originated outside of Africa, we would expect to find more L3 subclades outside of Africa, but the greatest diversity of L3 is within Africa. The same is true of L3'4'6. L4 has an age estimate of about 80 kya and is found widely distributed in Africa and Arabia. The most likely explanation for the Arabian L4 is relatively recent migration from Africa.

    This is from the Soares et al. 2011 paper on L3:
    An analysis of 369 complete African L3 sequences places this maximum at ~70 ka, virtually ruling out a successful exit before 74 ka, the date of the Toba volcanic super-eruption in Sumatra. The similarity of the age of L3 to its two non-African daughter haplogroups, M and N,
    suggests that the same process was likely responsible for both the L3 expansion in Eastern Africa and the dispersal of a small group of modern humans out of Africa to settle the rest of the world. The timing of the expansion of L3 suggests a link to improved climatic conditions after ~70 ka in Eastern and Central Africa, rather than to symbolically mediated behavior, which evidently arose considerably earlier.
    I agree it may be possible that modern human exited Africa earlier than 100 kya, but if they did, there is no trace of that migration in modern mtDNA.

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