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Thread: Roman "Celtic British?" Gladiator/Soldiers of York/Eboracum speculation

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    Roman "Celtic British?" Gladiator/Soldiers of York/Eboracum speculation

    I was discussing this in the Bell Beaker thread, but did not want to hijack the original post, so I started an additional thread here! I know these samples/paper (the Romano-British, one Iron Age, and one Anglo-Saxon) were already discussed, but I'd like to discuss some more with anyone who is willing to discuss or interested in the subclades of U106 found in the York samples. In particular I wish to discuss 6drif-3... basically my MDKA to date since I'm only a few SNPs (two or three?) away from him in common with my modern day matches (some from British Isles - one from Sweden with MDKA around 1734). The MDKA ancestor is important to me considering dating, SNP dating, spread etc of the sub group since the British Isles descendants know their ancestor came from "somewhere" in Britain (or possibly France) and the Swede is certainly from outside of Stockholm circa 1734 death of MDKA.

    6drif-3 was positive for DF98 (which is commonly associated with the Royal House of Wettin)... but was negative for the sub group (I call it Wettin's side of DF98) called S18823 which clusters mainly along/around the Upper Rhine. He was positive for the brother/sister clade of S18823 called S1911. Currently that clade and it's sub clades are dominated by mainly British (especially Scottish, Northern English and Irish samples) with a tentative connection to France around the S1911 level. Also in S1911 is the very possible descendants of Odard de Dutton born? Normandy and settled at Dutton in Cheshire - both the Dutton and Warburtons match each other SNP wise in a time table/dating that appears to support their descent from Odard or there abouts.

    Any speculation/discussion is welcome... as I bore my friends with this stuff, but I'd like to talk to some people who share the same passion for this. Additionally to the discussion "Is U106 only Germanic, or are parts Celtic" etc (to sum up a complicated topic with a simple title)... I think with any haplogroup and especially sub groups and lineages and paternal male lines, you need to trace those particular lines as best as you can (hopefully matching some ancient remains like I got lucky and matched like 6drif-3) to give context... as you can't assign such an old Y-DNA marker like U106 to "one" group... it's entirely possible for our male ancestors have been a part of a "Germanic" culture and then a "Celtic" culture... we know they moved around and adopted cultures...

    For those of you who are interested in the DF98 sub clade of U106 here is a great pdf by Dr. Iain McDonald. Pages 10 and 11 have nice maps of established European samples (so samples who know where their MDKAs came from, and not an American like me who only knows my Weaver ancestor most likely came from Northern England/Scotland possibly as an Ulster Scot to Pennsylvania)... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...gs-cluster.pdf

    Look forward to the discussions!

    Slainte mhor!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 09-01-2016 at 03:02 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    (In my view), some of the Celtic tribes of Belgium were likely responsible for bringing U152 and U106 a bit later to Britain. L21 seems to be more concentrated in NW France where the earlier (Celtic?) tribes hopped the channel. Perhaps "Belgium" already hosted the L21 men, but incursions of Germanic brought U106, and Celts further west in Central Europe brought U152. The latter two groups probably arrived there after the initial L21 settlements who seem more concentrated in the west of the UK/Ireland.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 09-01-2016 at 03:19 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    L21 seems to be more concentrated in NW France where the earlier (Celtic?) tribes hopped the channel
    Without ancient genomes, difficult to know whether L21 was present in NW France, i.e. in Armorica before the arrival of the Britons, or if this one has been boosted by them
    Recent Ancestry, full Normand. Known Genealogy 7/8 of the Cotentin peninsula 1/8 region of Coutances. Unfortunately, there are many missing branches on the maternal side.

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    Well we've seen with Rathlin genome that it's L21. Best estimate is that it crossed from NW or NE France... Halstatt Celts had much less influence in Britain and arrived later...more likely a DF27 or U152 signature IMHO. Germanic influence in Belgae could have brought U106 to Britain.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Thanks for making this thread! 6DRIF-23 is somewhere along my tree; maybe not as close as your headless horseman but at least past DF19>DF88 to Z17110/S4268 (I'm Z17112, down a bit past S4268). I don't know who or how one would go about getting more specific information on him besides what Alex wrote here:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post135901
    I have taken a look at the R-L52+ guy, 6DRIF-23. I hadn't see anything posted about him yet, but I could be mistaken.

    He is:
    P312+ (1A)

    Z4161+ (1C) - This is a DF19 equivalent

    S4274+ (1A) - This is a DF88 equivalent
    S23780+ (1T) - This is a DF88 equivalent

    S4268+ (2A) - This is a Z17110 equivalent (at least on my tree)
    22299057(C->G)+ This is in DYZ19, generally shows as mixed derived/ancestral - Z17110 equivalent (at least on my tree)

    He looks to be negative for Z17109 which I had as equivalent to Z17110.

    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=965

    From what I understand, the R-DF19 project has over 130 BigY kits, which is far more than what I have. I haven't seen their tree, but I'm curious how they divide up this block. 6DRIF-23 may be positive for other SNPs downstream of S4268 on that tree.

    Alex
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 09-01-2016 at 04:08 PM.

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    as an aside - concerning the Driffield Estate cemetery through the Roman period based on funeral monuments/tombstones that have been found there through the years (the ones that were recorded anyway and that I could find record of...) - I made a list. Appears it was favored by the military for burials... according to the inscriptions found there. This is a list of what I found researching all the funeral monuments/tombstones found around Eboracum/York. I tried to limit it to only material found on or very near the Driffield Estate in York (area of both 3 and 6 Driffield Terrace cemeteries...)

    Roman Tombstones and/or funeral fragments found on the Mount - on or very near Driffield Terrace

    (72) A inscribed tombstone found in 1911 while digging for a drain at the Mount School near Driffield Terrace: Tombstone of Lucius Baebius Crescens from Augusta Vindelicorum (modern day Augsburg), soldier of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Loyal and Faithful. 43 years of age and 23 years of service – enlisted when he was 20. His heir has this tombstone made for his friend.

    (77) A inscribed tombstone found in 1859 used as a cover/lid for coffin number 103 on Driffield Estate, the Mount. It says “To the spirits of the departed. To Flavia Augustina. She lived 39 years, 7 months, 11 days. Her son,.... nius Augustinus, lived 1 year 3 days, .... lived 1 year, 9 months, 5 days. Caeresius [August]inus, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, had (this stone) made for his dearest wife and himself.”

    (81) Tombstone fragment (Fig. 84), of gritstone, 1 ft. by 1 ft. 4 ins. by 6 ins., comprising the bottom of the relief and part of the first two lines of the inscription, together with the left-hand top corner of the die. The relief shows on the left a pet dog crouching left and, on the right, the lower part of a bust of Julia Secunda, holding another creature now indistinguishable. From the Driffield Estate, The Mount.

    (82) Tombstone (Plate 55), of gritstone, rectangular, 3 ft. 3 ins. by 4 ft. 9 ins. by 9 ins. An architectural frame encloses a round-headed niche in which is a relief of a funeral feast; in the spandrels are pine-cones. Below the relief is the inscription in a simple moulded sunk panel. The central figure of the relief is Julia Velva, whose head, with hair parted in the middle, and torso are alone visible, reclining on a couch and propping her head on her left arm, which rests on a cushion. She holds a wine jar in her right hand. The couch has a very thick mattress, high sides and legs knobbed at the top but otherwise plain. In front of the couch, left to right, are shown a young girl seated on a basket chair and clasping a pet bird, a three-legged table on which are dishes of food, a boy standing with his right hand on the table and holding a jug in his left, while Aurelius Mercurialis, bearded, stands in front of a larger table with claw feet, and holds a scroll in his right hand. Found in 1922, in making Albemarle Road, 15 yds. from The Mount. It says “To the spirits of the departed and to Julia Velva. She lived 50 years, most dutifully. Aurelius Mercurialis, her heir, had (this tombstone) made. He made it while alive for himself and his family.”

    (86) Tombstone fragments (Plate 52), two, of gritstone, adjacent and measuring together 1 ft. 9 ins. by 1 ft. 4 ins. by 7 ins. The inscription is in a moulded panel, with a small relief of a porpoise in the field above. From the Driffield Estate, The Mount.

    (87) Tombstone fragment (Plate 52. Fig. 85), of gritstone, 1 ft. 8½ ins. by 1 ft. 3½ ins. by 5½ ins., with relief above and inscription below, both in panels with simple moulded frames. Of the relief only the end of a scroll or piece of strapwork remains, and part of the M of D.M., of the inscription only the end of the first and second lines. Found on the Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). D(IS)] M(ANIBVS)/ ...... VIVS ▵ FE/ ....... VS/ ..... CIL, 259; YMH, 62.

    (88) Tombstone fragments (Plate 52. Fig. 85), two, of gritstone, 1 ft. 1 in. by 1 ft. and 1 ft. 4 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins., both by 7 ins., with the inscription in a sunk panel with a moulded frame. From the Driffield Estate (Driffield and Dalton Terraces) on the N.W. side of The Mount. It says “'To the spirits of the departed.... Manlius Crescens, son of..., from ... ..... a, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Ca . . . Pri. . . . and M. . .” There is hardly room for the tribe as well as the filiation of Crescens, and his origo must have been a short name, such as Parma. The two names below are presumably the nomen and cognomen of one heir followed by et, which would introduce the name of another. CIL, 259a; EE, III, 79; YMH, 51.

    (91) Tomb Tablet fragment (Plate 52), of gritstone, 2 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 7 ins. by 8 ins., with the inscription in a moulded panel, bordered by ansae designed in a variant pelta-pattern with goose-head terminals. Found in 1852 at Driffield Terrace, The Mount. It says “To .... son of Caius, of the Claudian tribe from Novaria .... of the Ninth Legion Hispana. His freedmen heirs made (this tomb) for a well deserving patron.” The voting-tribe of Novaria was the tribus Claudia. There is no room on the stone for a cognomen, and this is an example of its absence after A.D. 70.

    (95) Tombstone (Plate 53), of gritstone, 2 ft. 6 ins. by 3 ft. 10 ins. by 7 ins., the inscribed lower part missing. In a niche, formed by a shouldered arch and architectural frame, stands a male figure, wearing a tunic and cloak and holding in his left hand a scroll, in his right a vine branch, symbol of a centurion. The feet are broken away. In the spandrels of the arch are rosettes and above its crown is a bull's head with sacrificial fillets. There are mortice holes in each side of the stone, for fixing it into a monument. Found in 1852 in Driffield Terrace at a depth of 3 ft. to 4 ft. – part of a Centurion’s tombstone/funeral monument.

    (99) Tombstone fragment (Plate 54), of gritstone, 10 ins. by 12 ins. by 4 ins., with part of a relief showing a leg from below the knee with a sandalled foot. The attitude suggests a rider and the object with two borders behind the leg may be a saddle-cloth. Found before 1860 in Driffield Terrace or Dalton Terrace, The Mount. Piece of an auxiliary cavalryman’s tombstone?

    (103) Coffin (Plate 57. Fig. 86), of gritstone, 7 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 4 ins. The inscription is contained in a moulded panel on the long side of the coffin, flanked by the letters D. and M. each beyond bracket-like scrolls. Found in 1859, in Dalton Terrace (N.G. 59355108) (see Burials, IV Region, (m), vi). The coffin had been reused for a male burial in gypsum, and the tombstone of Flavia Augustina (see No. 77) formed its lid. The lettering showed traces of original red paint, now blotted out by a modern substitute. “To the spirits of the departed (and) to the good lady Aelia Severa, once the wife of Caecilius Rufus. She lived 27 years 9 months and 4 days. Caecilius Musicus his freedman placed (this monument).' Mommsen (Strafrecht, 1035, 5) observes that honesta femina might apply to the wife or daughter of a Decurion/cavalry officer.

    108) Coffin (Plate 56), of gritstone, 4 ft. by 1 ft. 10 ins. by 1 ft. 4½ ins. with a ridged lid 9 ins. high. Matching recesses indicate where the lid had originally been clamped. The coffin when found, N.W. of The Mount, on the railway line S. of Holgate railway bridge (N.G. 59155120), had been reused for the burial of a child older than the inscription indicates. To the spirits of the departed. For Simplicia Florentina, a most innocent soul, who lived 10 months, Felicius Simplex, her father, of the Sixth Legion Victorious, made (this memorial).' The LEG · VI · V has been added to the inscription as an after-thought in a much less monumental style of lettering, a centurial sign being added before PATER.

    (109) Coffin (Plate 57. Fig. 86), of gritstone, very much broken, 6 ft. 10 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. Found at the beginning of the 19th century between The Mount and Driffield Terrace. To the memory of Valerius Theodorianus, of Nomentum. He lived 35 years, 6 months: I, Theodora his mother, bought (this coffin) for his sake.' A fragment of another inscribed stone now supports the left-hand end of the coffin.

    (112) Coffin fragment (Plate 56), relief of gritstone, 11½ ins. by 17 ins. by 4 ins., from the right-hand edge of the front. A naked amorino, with feathered wings, turns half right, with arms poised to support the ansa or pelta bordering an inscribed panel now missing. Found in 1860, near The Mount.

    (116) Head (Plate 63), of a man, slightly smaller than life size, 7 ins. by 5 ins., in limestone; it is broken off just below the nose. The work is vigorously carved; the protuberant ears, prominent high cheek-bones, and hair swept to a fringe are reminiscent of the style and period of the tombstone of Duccius Rufinus (No. 75). Found on Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). It was probably from a funerary monument.

    (117) Bust (Plate 62), of a man, approximately life size 18 ins. high, in gritstone. It is heavily weathered, but has the look of a portrait-bust. Found on Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). It was probably from a funerary monument.

    (120) Sphinx (Plate 62), funerary, of gritstone, 1 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 6 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins. The creature is conceived as a nude crouched female, with melancholy upward gaze half-left. Her hair hangs in six tresses, divided over the shoulders and back. The breasts are prominent, and wings and a long tail complete the figure. The hands and feet are missing, together with the front of the pedestal. There is no inscription, contrary to previous fancy. Found in 1852, in Driffield Terrace, The Mount.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    The interesting thing about the R1b U106 gladiators(3DRIF-16/3DRIF-3) is that they show high affinity to Poles/Lithuanians. More so than the other Roman-British samples.



    England_Roman 0.869
    Swedish 0.131
    chisq 1.784 tail prob 0.775339

    England_Roman 0.884
    Polish 0.116
    chisq 1.971 tail prob 0.741124

    It looks like they were Britons with significant Continental admixture. Big chance is they had ancestry from Scandinavia and/or eastern central europe.(eastern Germanic-Briton mix maybe?)
    Last edited by Radboud; 09-01-2016 at 04:59 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Dewsloth;183854]Thanks for making this thread! 6DRIF-23 is somewhere along my tree; maybe not as close as your headless horseman but at least past DF19>DF88 to S4268. I don't know who or how one would go about getting more specific information on him besides what Alex wrote here:

    You are welcome Dewsloth!!! I thought it would just be fun to discuss the a) samples found in Driffield and their DNA groups and b) additional speculation about their occupations etc... even though I have spoken to Kurt Hunter Mann (the lead archaeologist on the dig) and his first hypothesis is strongly based on the fact that it appears some (or all?) were gladiators because of the one guy who was buried with leg irons (though no shackle per x-ray for attachment of chains - which is strange - why put irons on someone if they don't retrain their movement... more of an annoyance... probably symbolic in nature) and also the clearly carnivore bite marks on the other guy, plus the over all amount of evidence for interpersonal violence overall compared to other Romano-British cemeteries. His 2nd interpretation would be soldiers of some type etc.

    For my matching 6drif-3... Alex was able to figure out we match on some FGC SNPs I had named per my results from Big Y... My newest match is from Sweden and he and I match a couple additional SNPs past 6drif-3 (though remember 6drif-3 was no call for this FGC14840 I share with the Swede - possibly a coverage read issue - and may or may not have been positive as I understand it)... so I have done a lot of research on Romans and burials and sharp blade trauma etc in the period in Britain in addition to the DNA bit...

    Yeah the most info we have on 6drif-3 is the same as your guy... it's what Alex found in the file in addition... and he is added to Dr. Iain's pdf... he's referenced on page 6 of the King's Cluster pdf... Iain listed the no calls and positives... also a break down of MDKAs of our groups around there... quite a nice pdf and I'm lucky to have Iain in my group ;-). http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...gs-cluster.pdf

    Refresh my memory for me... which one was 6drif-23? He was buried in the three man burial with the horse bones correct? I know that 6drif-3 (and 6 - they were buried in coffins next to each other) were about 6 feet away from that mound burial with the horse bones. 6drif-3 had a cremation burial (the only one found in 6 driffield?) on top of/in his grave... his skull was in the wooden box in which they buried the cremated remains... the archaeologists were unsure why they didn't just chuck his skull... why re-bury it with the cremation? Out of respect? Brought status to the burial? Remains a mystery and why I like to discuss it ;-).
    Last edited by Bollox79; 09-01-2016 at 04:26 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    I also wonder about that Radboud: you said "It looks like they were of Britons with significant Continental admixture. Big chance is they had ancestry from Scandinavia and/or eastern central europe.(eastern Germanic-Briton mix maybe?)."

    I wonder what groups could have brought that mixture... either through the Baltic to Northern England... or down into the Rhine area/Low countries and over with the Romans etc... it must mean something to have that show up in the mixture... :-).
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    The interesting thing about the R1b U106 gladiators(3DRIF16-3/3DRIF16-3) is that they show high affinity to Poles/Lithuanians. More so than the other Roman-British samples.






    It looks like they were of Britons with significant Continental admixture. Big chance is they had ancestry from Scandinavia and/or eastern central europe.(eastern Germanic-Briton mix maybe?)
    Well the FTDNA DF19 folks had estimated S4268 splitting at around the 2nd Century AD in southern Denmark/northern Germany region.
    I'm thinking 6DRIF-23 was probably from that region. It was mentioned that recruits tended to be posted away from their home territory, so that would be consistent.
    IIRC, the original isotope study findings on him were inconclusive with him being from either England or the continent.
    Part-skeletons of horses were deposited with a number of burials, including
    6Drif-24 and 6Drif-21, the individuals with the lowest and highest δ
    18Op, respectively, but
    also with the isotopically less remarkable 6Drif-23, for whom an upbringing in York is
    unlikely but who may well have come from Eastern England or an area with similar water
    values on the European continent or beyond (see above). If anything, it was therefore not a
    common origin, but rather the diversity of their backgrounds which was the defining feature
    for the Driffield Terrace Group

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