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Thread: Pontic Greek R-U152

  1. #51
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    U152>Z36>R-FT330613

    United States of America Poland Greece
    Gotcha. I was definitely not thinking the paternal side, or the Ydna coming from the Caucasus, but more along the lines of my father's maternal grandmother being partially Georgian. Let's say my father's paternal grandfather was fully Greek, and his paternal grandmother was mostly Greek with a Georgian ancestor from before the arrival of the Greeks. My father's paternal grandmother was from Yenikoy from birth and it's feasible to think that a part of this family, was there when it was a Georgian village. Let's say that both of my father's paternal grandparents were mostly Greek, but that there could have been Georgian and Balkan communities within Yenikoy from earlier times, that figure into their total ethnicity. The people who I have figured out on a few sites like ancestry, ftdna, and other sites who for sure were from Yenikoy (there aren't many) tend to be between 1/3-2/3 % Greek. For example on ancestry, before their recent update, a lot of these people had heavy amounts of Eastern European percentages and almost always 0% Turkey and the Caucasus. Today, after the update, those same people now have Balkan and a few including my father and I, have an uptick in "Turkey and the Caucasus." Since you are saying there is no evidence of us being at all Turkish, I think at least on ancestry, they are now attributing Caucasian dna to my father's paternal grandparents. Pontic Greeks almost always come up at near 100% in categories like West Asian or Turkey and the Caucasus. So that is why I had the thought of some Georgian ancestry in our Yenikoy ancestors. But just a trace. It was just a thought I had.

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  3. #52
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    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>FGC32041
    mtDNA (M)
    X2e2a3
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Yes, it is still possible your father might have some Georgian genetic input on his paternal side, however it should be in a very diluted form if there is such genetic input. Not saying it is necessarily in noise levels. It could explain the preference of Georgians instead of Armenians in the four population Oracle results of your father for instance.

    As for me, yes, I am from the very rare (less than 1%) individuals with R-U152 among people with Anatolian patrilineal ancestry. I and my close paternal relatives from the same R-U152 line have taken Big Y-700 and Y-111 tests, joined YFull, Full Genomes and the R-P312 Big Tree, joined many R1b FTDNA projects and exchanged lots of emails with the admins of those projects and finally found out that our specific R-U152 line was still in Western Europe during the early centuries of the 1st millennium BC at the earliest based on ancient and modern DNA results and detailed Y-SNP- and Y-STR-based calculations. This means it came to Anatolia probably with the Galatian Celtic or Roman migrations at the earliest, the central Anatolian origins of my father makes me lean more towards the former possibility given the history of Celtic colonization in central Anatolia.
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

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  5. #53
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    U152>Z36>R-FT330613

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    That's very interesting. I need to get in touch with the administrator of the Z36 portion of the R-U152 study. I don't want to spend too much time looking at my dad's autosomal results from ancestry or ftdna, but I do wonder about a few things. Since your Celtic roots are far in the past, the Galatians being part of the Celtic invasion of Greece and Thrace at about 279 BC, is it fair to assume that this type of background would not show up in an atdna test's ethnicity results? Do you get any type of results that are related to Italo-Celts for example? I would think not. But if it would be a more recent source like Frankokratia or Republic of Venice etc, wouldn't that be more likely to appear in an atdna ethnicity estimate? I don't know if this type of thinking is flawed. It makes sense at the surface level. Before the update at ancestry, my father was 14% Italian. Now it looks like those percentages were reinterpreted as 3% Cyprus, 2% France, 4% Balkan, and some Caucasian DNA as well. Does this French and Cypriot estimate suggest at all a more recent source of R-U152? And then the thing about the Orlov Revolt is that there were mainland Greeks and other groups like the Cretans. A thought that I have is if the Yenikoy Greeks were from diverse parts of Greece, could there be a chance that among all of the Greek ancestors of my paternal grandparents, there could have been a Cretan? Could this explain the Cypriot value and some of the values on G25 like Greek_Cretan and Greek_Kos? Again, I'm not saying they were primarily Cretans or islanders. Could be mostly mainland Greeks. What are your thoughts on these ideas?

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  7. #54
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    X2e2a3
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Marko47 View Post
    That's very interesting. I need to get in touch with the administrator of the Z36 portion of the R-U152 study. I don't want to spend too much time looking at my dad's autosomal results from ancestry or ftdna, but I do wonder about a few things. Since your Celtic roots are far in the past, the Galatians being part of the Celtic invasion of Greece and Thrace at about 279 BC, is it fair to assume that this type of background would not show up in an atdna test's ethnicity results? Do you get any type of results that are related to Italo-Celts for example? I would think not. But if it would be a more recent source like Frankokratia or Republic of Venice etc, wouldn't that be more likely to appear in an atdna ethnicity estimate? I don't know if this type of thinking is flawed. It makes sense at the surface level. Before the update at ancestry, my father was 14% Italian. Now it looks like those percentages were reinterpreted as 3% Cyprus, 2% France, 4% Balkan, and some Caucasian DNA as well. Does this French and Cypriot estimate suggest at all a more recent source of R-U152? And then the thing about the Orlov Revolt is that there were mainland Greeks and other groups like the Cretans. A thought that I have is if the Yenikoy Greeks were from diverse parts of Greece, could there be a chance that among all of the Greek ancestors of my paternal grandparents, there could have been a Cretan? Could this explain the Cypriot value and some of the values on G25 like Greek_Cretan and Greek_Kos? Again, I'm not saying they were primarily Cretans or islanders. Could be mostly mainland Greeks. What are your thoughts on these ideas?
    My paternal side does not show any obvious Celtic influence in the autosomes, but it is currently virtually impossible to discern such kind of genetic input in modern Anatolians (be them Turkish or Greek) even if it exists in higher than noise levels, see this thread for the details: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....sh-people-have

    In ancestry analyses it is better to have a good grasp of genealogy to make better sense of the results and build better models. In your case your knowledge on your paternal genealogy seems to be quite limited and confusing. I think you should also make use of the parish registers and also the Ottoman civil registers. For the latter I can be of help to you if you visit Istanbul to collect past population data about your ancestral villages from the Ottoman archive there.

    I suggest you not take the percentage results of the genetic testing companies literally, most of the time they are not that accurate, especially in the low percentage ancestry assignments. Global25 and GEDmatch calculators are the best ancestry estimation tools you can use yourself and they are quite easy to use as you see. In addition to Vahaduo, you can use the G25 coordinates in these ancestry estimation tools:

    https://genoplot.com/g25

    https://yk.github.io/ancestry/
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

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  9. #55
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    U152>Z36>R-FT330613

    United States of America Poland Greece
    [QUOTE=Onur Dincer;700855]My paternal side does not show any obvious Celtic influence in the autosomes, but it is currently virtually impossible to discern such kind of genetic input in modern Anatolians (be them Turkish or Greek)

    This helps me quite a bit actually. I have modern day matches, although distant, from the US, with French, Irish, British, German, and Scandinavian backgrounds. I have one particular surname in my exact 12 marker matches that occurs about 17 times that is British with what looks like a Norman background. This surname also occurs in a person in my autosomal match list as well. Although ethnicity estimates from major companies don't mean so much at face value, there are some patterns that make me think the Frankokratia suggestion makes a lot of sense. One site gives me 3% Irish/Scottish/Welsh, another gives me Scandinavian 5%, my dad French, Italian, etc. Z36 lineages are thought to be more Celtic than Roman, spread to North West Europe rather than Southern Italy. I'm definitely readjusting my thinking a bit, based on what you guys are telling me. I also appreciate your invitation Onur, I would totally do it if I got the chance.

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  11. #56
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    U152>Z36>R-FT330613

    United States of America Poland Greece
    https://yk.github.io/ancestry/[/QUOTE]

    Onur, in the above link, what are the best settings to look at somewhat deeper ancestry? My father's paternal people seem to have very few autosomal matches as compared to the Pontic people in the family. The Greek names seem to be from my father's paternal grandmother than his paternal grandfather. It seems like the few paternal ancestors my father has, are the aforementioned distant American, Irish, French, etc matches and Baltic, Russian, and Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jewish matches. I realized that the more recent ancestors are probably Greek mainlanders/Thracians as you said earlier, but is there a setting in the link where I can go a bit further back? I experimented with the different settings without really knowing what they were doing and I did see some Gallo-Roman looking results, but I was wondering what would be the one you looked at specifically. Thanks again.

  12. #57
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    W6c1a

    Greece Greek Macedonia Empire of Trebizond Byzantine Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by Marko47 View Post
    stuff
    My mother (Pontic Greek from Trabzon) shares 18.9 cM with your Giresun kit, matching on Chr. 2, and an estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.8.
    53.52% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 46.48% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.018

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     Onur Dincer (09-19-2020)

  14. #58
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    U152>Z36>R-FT330613

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    What a coincidence. Let's chat.

  15. #59
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    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Marko47 View Post
    https://yk.github.io/ancestry/

    Onur, in the above link, what are the best settings to look at somewhat deeper ancestry? My father's paternal people seem to have very few autosomal matches as compared to the Pontic people in the family. The Greek names seem to be from my father's paternal grandmother than his paternal grandfather. It seems like the few paternal ancestors my father has, are the aforementioned distant American, Irish, French, etc matches and Baltic, Russian, and Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jewish matches. I realized that the more recent ancestors are probably Greek mainlanders/Thracians as you said earlier, but is there a setting in the link where I can go a bit further back? I experimented with the different settings without really knowing what they were doing and I did see some Gallo-Roman looking results, but I was wondering what would be the one you looked at specifically. Thanks again.
    Marko, if you and your tested relatives join my FTDNA Anatolia-Balkans-Caucasus DNA Project, I can examine your match lists and make better assessments of the matches. You are all welcome to join my project:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...n-caucas/about
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

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  17. #60
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    U152>Z36>R-FT330613

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    I have joined and included my father's autosomal results too.

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     Onur Dincer (09-23-2020)

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