Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 56

Thread: Baltic languages: a short question.

  1. #31
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    909
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>FGC32041
    mtDNA (M)
    X2e2a3
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    J. W. Donaldson and S.F. Dunlap, but as I can see they are not alone, especially after and Wikipedia started to see such a connection.
    Of course, older authors and historical references such as:
    "Sclavos sive Getas: hoc enim nomine antiquitus appellati sunt."These are actually the first to bear this name. And as we well know, the Getae are Thracian tribe . The connection is not Baltic-Thracian. You are walking against the historical facts.
    What Slavic-related books did those authors write? I cannot find any book specifically related to Slavic peoples or languages by those authors.
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Onur Dincer For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-16-2020)

  3. #32
    Registered Users
    Posts
    326
    Ethnicity
    Macedonian
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y16729
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    North Macedonia United Kingdom England Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    The Slavic invasion of the Balkans is a historical fact. If you mean the Baltic connection of the Thracian language, that is another issue, unrelated to Slavic. Thracian is connected by some linguists to the Baltic languages specifically within the Balto-Slavic family, that means the connection, if real, probably postdates the split of Baltic and Slavic and also indicates that Thracian does not form a clade with Slavic within the Balto-Slavic languages but with Baltic instead.
    I would like to mention that the first mentionioning of the Slavs is by Jordanes who gives specific arguments about the places that they inhabited and these places included the lowlands around the Carpathian mountain and the left side of river Danube. Now I am not sure what do you consider 'Balkans' because there are different opinions on that but some maps of the Balkans include the lowlands of Wallachia which according to the Gothic author Jordanes were inhabited by Slavs in the 6th century.
    Now, many linguists think that the Slavic split from the proto-Balto-Slavic from the LBA-EIA onwards. Considering the fact that the EIA is the time when the Thracians are mentioned for the first time(Homer), and there is a great overlap of the Thracian language with the Balto-Slavic ones, lot bigger than with any other language family, we might assume that LBA-EIA was the time when Thracian split off from the Thraco-Balto-Slavic proto language, not earlier than that.
    Therefore, I don't agree with what you say here, that Thracian is related to Baltic and not to Slavic languages. The similarly of the language itself depends on the archaism of the language. Considering that what we know of the Thracian is attested in the EIA and Roman times, that would certainly qualify it as an archaic one. On top of that, the Baltic languages as more isolated ones would have retain more of those archaisms than the Slavic which absorbed more foreign influences in the form of Germanic and Iranic superstrate primary.
    Either way, Thracian is clearly more related to the Slavic languages than with any other Balkan language families and the work done on it clearly points that the connection is real, mainly the work of Duridanov and other linguists.

    Edit: Archaeologically there are elements of the Lusatian culture found throughout the Balkans and Northern Greece which some archaeologists and historians connected with the Bryges and the Thracians.
    Last edited by Aspar; 09-16-2020 at 03:42 PM.

  4. #33
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    909
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>FGC32041
    mtDNA (M)
    X2e2a3
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    I am sure. If Thracian toponyms can be explained and I mean the etymology of these words in your native language, what does this mean?
    I specifically mean the Slavic toponyms (those with clear Slavic etymology), not the pre-Slavic ones, not the ones assimilated to Slavic languages from the pre-Slavic languages of the Balkans.
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Onur Dincer For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-16-2020),  Alain (09-16-2020),  Michał (09-16-2020)

  6. #34
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    909
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>FGC32041
    mtDNA (M)
    X2e2a3
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I would like to mention that the first mentionioning of the Slavs is by Jordanes who gives specific arguments about the places that they inhabited and these places included the lowlands around the Carpathian mountain and the left side of river Danube. Now I am not sure what do you consider 'Balkans' because there are different opinions on that but some maps of the Balkans include the lowlands of Wallachia which according to the Gothic author Jordanes were inhabited by Slavs in the 6th century.
    Now, many linguists think that the Slavic split from the proto-Balto-Slavic from the LBA-EIA onwards. Considering the fact that the EIA is the time when the Thracians are mentioned for the first time(Homer), and there is a great overlap of the Thracian language with the Balto-Slavic ones, lot bigger than with any other language family, we might assume that LBA-EIA was the time when Thracian split off from the Thraco-Balto-Slavic proto language, not earlier than that.
    Therefore, I don't agree with what you say here, that Thracian is related to Baltic and not to Slavic languages. The similarly of the language itself depends on the archaism of the language. Considering that what we know of the Thracian is attested in the EIA and Roman times, that would certainly qualify it as an archaic one. On top of that, the Baltic languages as more isolated ones would have retain more of those archaisms than the Slavic which absorbed more foreign influences in the form of Germanic and Iranic superstrate primary.
    Either way, Thracian is clearly more related to the Slavic languages than with any other Balkan language families and the work done on it clearly points that the connection is real, mainly the work of Duridanov and other linguists.
    Well, I specifically meant the Roman Balkans, so north of the Danube is out. But even the parts north of the Lower Danube had newly been invaded by the Slavs during the 6th century AD.

    Duridanov found little connection between Slavic and Thracian compared to what he found between Baltic and Thracian. That cannot just be due to the archaic nature of Thracian and Baltic, there seems to be a closer connection between Baltic and Thracian.
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Onur Dincer For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-16-2020),  Alain (09-16-2020),  anglesqueville (09-16-2020)

  8. #35
    Registered Users
    Posts
    693
    Sex
    Location
    Belgrade
    Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Nationality
    Serb
    Y-DNA (P)
    PH908>A5913>A22312

    Serbia Montenegro Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatia Split-Dalmatia
    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    Would you be more specific about that " invasion of the Balkans" by whom specifically, when and by what new particular genes? I need to understand the purpose of the questions at least.
    I2-Y3120, R1a-Z280 and R1a-PF6155 weren't found in any Balkan population predating Slavic migrations, and today these three combined make the majority of male lineages in most Balkan peoples. Care to explain?

  9. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Pribislav For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-16-2020),  Alain (09-16-2020),  George (09-16-2020),  Michał (09-16-2020),  Onur Dincer (09-16-2020)

  10. #36
    Registered Users
    Posts
    110
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    What Slavic-related books did those authors write? I cannot find any book specifically related to Slavic peoples or languages by those authors.

    I will give you the quotes from the home files that I keep:


    J. Donaldson: Pelasgian language, as it appears in the oldest forms of certain Latin and Greek archaisms, was unquestionably most nearly allied to the Sclavonian
    J. W. Donaldson, Varronianus, A Critical and Historical Introduction to the Ethnography of the Ancient Italy and to the Philological Study of the Latin Language, 1852


    S. Dunlap: Thracians, Getae, Scythians .. were so many links in a chain connecting Pelasgians with Media ... Pelasgian was unquestionably most nearly related to Sclavonian.
    S.F. Dunlap, Vestiges of the Spirit of Man, New York, 1858

    But as I said before there are older references from other history sources about Thracians and parallels made.

  11. #37
    Registered Users
    Posts
    110
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    I2-Y3120, R1a-Z280 and R1a-PF6155 weren't found in any Balkan population predating Slavic migrations, and today these three combined make the majority of male lineages in most Balkan peoples. Care to explain?
    Is this in any way related to the change of language and culture at the Balkans and where to read about?
    Lets not forget the topic is about language and if those haplogroups has no relation here what exactly is the purpose you posting them?
    It is already stated the Thracian -Baltic connection. We can very well orientate ourselves on the map where Thrace is. It is not at North Europe. The transmissions are cultural, linguistic, religious..., from south to north. There is no doubt.
    And let's not forget from where Christianity first entered Europe. The first Slavic books were not in Baltic. So the transmissions have lasted a long time. Again in the same direction.
    But if you find something different about I'm waiting to see it. This will be news to me.
    Last edited by DgidguBidgu; 09-16-2020 at 04:20 PM.

  12. #38
    Registered Users
    Posts
    219
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Italian, 1/2 Armenian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a

    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    Well, I specifically meant the Roman Balkans, so north of the Danube is out. But even the parts north of the Lower Danube had newly been invaded by the Slavs during the 6th century AD.

    Duridanov found little connection between Slavic and Thracian compared to what he found between Baltic and Thracian. That cannot just be due to the archaic nature of Thracian and Baltic, there seems to be a closer connection between Baltic and Thracian.
    Do you have a link to that? That's so intresting.

  13. #39
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    909
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>FGC32041
    mtDNA (M)
    X2e2a3
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    I will give you the quotes from the home files that I keep:


    J. Donaldson: Pelasgian language, as it appears in the oldest forms of certain Latin and Greek archaisms, was unquestionably most nearly allied to the Sclavonian
    J. W. Donaldson, Varronianus, A Critical and Historical Introduction to the Ethnography of the Ancient Italy and to the Philological Study of the Latin Language, 1852


    S. Dunlap: Thracians, Getae, Scythians .. were so many links in a chain connecting Pelasgians with Media ... Pelasgian was unquestionably most nearly related to Sclavonian.
    S.F. Dunlap, Vestiges of the Spirit of Man, New York, 1858

    But as I said before there are older references from other history sources about Thracians and parallels made.
    Those are outdated books from the 19th century and apparently not written by experts on Slavic. Do you have more reliable and recent sources for your theory? Also, do you have early medieval sources for your theory?
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Onur Dincer For This Useful Post:

     Michał (09-16-2020)

  15. #40
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    909
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>FGC32041
    mtDNA (M)
    X2e2a3
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a>YP294>BY90442
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b

    Cappadocian Kingdom Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Greek Macedonia Byzantine Empire Ottoman Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Do you have a link to that? That's so intresting.
    If you speak German, you can read this book by Duridanov on this subject:

    Duridanov I. (1985) Die Sprache der Thraker
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-01-2020, 04:09 AM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-22-2020, 09:22 AM
  3. Question on Anatolian languages
    By epoch in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-20-2019, 03:26 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-20-2018, 01:52 PM
  5. A funny short video about scandinavian languages
    By anglesqueville in forum Northern
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-05-2017, 10:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •