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Thread: Ancient DNA shows domestic horses in southern Caucasus, Anatolia during Bronze Age

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The point made was that Carlos was an idiot, which is indisputable
    Now this is exactly what I like about you and eurogenes hahaha!

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    All Indo-European speaking equestrian cultures had Sintashta horses not DOM2 horses.

    No one knows yet when the modern domestic Sintashta clade was domesticated or where, and when people started riding. But the current evidence suggests that riding in war became widespread in the Andronovo culture.

    https://phys.org/news/2020-07-ancien...ronze-age.html
    That article about the psalies from around 1600 bc was pretty much exactly what I was thinking about. Reminds me of this bit in The origin of Indo-Iranians by Helena Kuz'mina (p.97):

    Considerable changes in the steppes during this period are shown by the appearance of hoards of bronze objects. There are hoards of two types: family
    and founders hoards (Kuz’mina 1966: 98). Family hoards (Brichmulla, Turksib, Sadovoe, Sukuluk, Issyk-Kul’, Shamshi, Tuyuk, etc., Figs. 43, 114) contain various types of used objects, which were family property. The appearance of such hoards reflects the process of property stratification of the late Andronovo tribes. The concealment of hoards in the earth indicates the tense situation in the steppe, more frequent military confrontations, which is proved by the spread of numerous types of new defensive weapons and the appearance of cheek-pieces that were used by mounted warriors. All this is evidence of a uniform process connected with the transition to nomadic cattle-breeding.
    So basically horse riding got them all amped up and violent (raiding became easier than it already was), and then I guess the Karasuk living around the Altai got really got at it and became the first Scythians, who then spread across the steppes and assimilated the other Andronovo and Srubnaya tribes. Or alternatively, it was really violent and they were mainly replaced. It's kind of weird how this is a very interesting period in prehistory yet nobody in the general public has ever even heard of the Sintashta and Andronovo cultures. Try telling someone that once upon a time redheaded Iranic speaking people used to live in modern day Khakassia, people will think you're part of the Ancient Aliens crew (who did make an episode about Sintashta actually).
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 09-20-2020 at 04:01 AM.

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  3. #12
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    I think horse riding spread to Central - Western Europe through contact and trade with Kimmeri and Scythians in the early Iron Age (Hallstatt C Period). And later we even find the chariot up to the 100th century AD because we know from the Sintashta culture with the Celts in Britain, which means close trade contacts. How (contact zones West Ukraine, Balkans / Black Sea coast). The Celts would be pushed from the north to the south and east by pressing Germanic tribes from the north and parallel to this the Scythians from the pressing Sarmatians from the east to the west, which I think Trade contact and influence has increased again and we need more data and information. With the bell beakers and corded wares, the horse was used as a draft and pack animal and only as this thread already mentioned was the Andronovo cultural horizon decisive for the early riding of modern domestic horses and then surely quickly found its way into Eastern Europe (Srubnaya Culture) because both cultures almost Act promptly.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
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  4. #13
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    A sidenote: there's a quite sizeable horse DNA research project going on in Finland. One of the questions the research group is looking at is the reason and timing of Botai type of horse genes getting into Finnhorse gene pool. It seems that Finnhorse is the only modern tamed horse type having that feature.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnhorse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    I think horse riding spread to Central - Western Europe through contact and trade with Kimmeri and Scythians in the early Iron Age (Hallstatt C Period). And later we even find the chariot up to the 100th century AD because we know from the Sintashta culture with the Celts in Britain, which means close trade contacts. How (contact zones West Ukraine, Balkans / Black Sea coast). The Celts would be pushed from the north to the south and east by pressing Germanic tribes from the north and parallel to this the Scythians from the pressing Sarmatians from the east to the west, which I think Trade contact and influence has increased again and we need more data and information. With the bell beakers and corded wares, the horse was used as a draft and pack animal and only as this thread already mentioned was the Andronovo cultural horizon decisive for the early riding of modern domestic horses and then surely quickly found its way into Eastern Europe (Srubnaya Culture) because both cultures almost Act promptly.
    The central position and spread of Yamnaya-pastoralists who would have specialized in animal husbandry, is like a chess board, controlling the centre. They would have access to different breeds of horses from Botai, Mongolia, Caucasus, Balkans, Hungary- Western-Europe.

    At their center close to where modern descendants of Sarmatian-Alan live(Ossetian) is where you find the clues to oldest wagon burials with signs of riders injured. Also in the field of languages with characteristics, for example, proto-Kartvelian words like wine shared (wine)with Hittite, Armenian, etc.... and Indo-Aryan words shared between different groups like Mordvins, Chechens, Inguish etc....It is also how the Indo-Iranian-Vedic would have picked up the word for Turtle since the European turtle habitat overlaps nicely in this region.



    https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.c...antas-six.html

    Szigetszentmiklós Cemetery (Santa's Six Foot Elves)

    R1b-Z2109+ is also Sarmatian

    When you look at grave 688 (I2787), you will see below his Y-chromosome haplogroup is identified as R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) which is unlike almost all Bell Beakers (that can be discerned) but absolutely like many of the Yamnaya sequenced to date. This can mean several things, but one reasonable possibility is that I2787 was ethnically half Bell Beaker and half Tisza Yamnaya. I could imagine his father as a relatively unmixed Yamnaya pastoralist from across the Tisza River and that his mother was an ethnic Central European Bell Beaker, which is why he was entitled to Beaker rites at Szigetszentmiklós.

    It could also be viewed as fray from a region that in some past time sent out founder lineages; but whether true or not, I don't think that would really describe this man's personal history, not on Csepel Island. Some sites on the island have ridiculous quantities of horse remains. I2787's family history may reflect the horse trade and networks that connected different peoples in this area. Maybe his parents were some of those different peoples.
    The Sanskrit word 'Kurma' (Devanagari: कूर्म) means 'tortoise' and 'turtle'.[1] 'Kurmaraja' (कूर्मराज) means 'king of tortoises or turtles'.[2] The tortoise avatar of Vishnu is also referred to in post-Vedic literature such as the Bhagavata Purana as 'Kacchapam' (कच्छप),
    Last edited by Silesian; 09-20-2020 at 10:59 AM.
    Central Europe East (YBP 12K-18K+/-)--Palćolithic Yamnaya like derived/related samples>R1b-Z2103+>R1b-Z2110+ -Yamnaya-3300–2600 BC, Catacomb-2800–2200 BC, Csepel Island Hungary- Eastern Bell Beakers-2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka-2700—2100 BC, Karagash-Khazakhstan 3018-2887 BC- Sarmatian-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....newly added outliers--R1b-L52 Corded Ware & R1b-Z2109 Sintashta !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The central position and spread of Yamnaya-pastoralists who would have specialized in animal husbandry, is like a chess board, controlling the centre. They would have access to different breeds of horses from Botai, Mongolia, Caucasus, Balkans, Hungary- Western-Europe.

    At their center close to where modern descendants of Sarmatian-Alan live(Ossetian) is where you find the clues to oldest wagon burials with signs of riders injured. Also in the field of languages with characteristics, for example, proto-Kartvelian words like wine shared (wine)with Hittite, Armenian, etc.... and Indo-Aryan words shared between different groups like Mordvins, Chechens, Inguish etc....It is also how the Indo-Iranian-Vedic would have picked up the word for Turtle since the European turtle habitat overlaps nicely in this region.



    https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.c...antas-six.html

    Szigetszentmiklós Cemetery (Santa's Six Foot Elves)

    R1b-Z2109+ is also Sarmatian





    Thanks for the information, but unfortunately riding would be developed in the Andronovo cultural horizon and not with the Yamnaya pastoralists and the eastern Yamnaya culture came into contact with the Botai and probably also with the Przewalski horse (Afanisevo culture). T he animal husbandry was with the Yamnaya- and the catacomb burial culture dominant predominantly cattle but not domesticated horses or access to different horse breeds and please leave out Quiles' representation

    And one more thing, everything does not always start from the Yamnaya culture but also follow cultures and extensions with new genetic admixtures (impact) the direct genetic Yamnaya influence went as far as the Pannoic Plain in the Caucasus and the Volga region, as is the case today living Udmurts, CWC / Sintashta and BBs were more formative than Yamnaya
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    My FTDNA autosomal

    East Europe 82%
    Southeast Europe 14%
    Finland 2%
    West and Central Europe 1%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Thanks for the information, but unfortunately riding would be developed in the Andronovo cultural horizon and not with the Yamnaya pastoralists and the eastern Yamnaya culture came into contact with the Botai and probably also with the Przewalski horse (Afanisevo culture). T he animal husbandry was with the Yamnaya- and the catacomb burial culture dominant predominantly cattle but not domesticated horses or access to different horse breeds and please leave out Quiles' representation

    And one more thing, everything does not always start from the Yamnaya culture but also follow cultures and extensions with new genetic admixtures (impact) the direct genetic Yamnaya influence went as far as the Pannoic Plain in the Caucasus and the Volga region, as is the case today living Udmurts, CWC / Sintashta and BBs were more formative than Yamnaya
    No, thank you!
    It's your posts that have sparked the idea, on how to not conflate Corded-Ware-Sintashta-Andronovo with Yamnaya/Poltavka/Catacombe-R1b-Z2109+(also found in Sintashta burials)and/or stratified in other later Steppe burial cultures.

    You see we know the age range and geographical range of each of the above. Therefore we can conjecture on the fauna, including horses. For example we can not conflate the origin of each cultures horse, since they would have access to different gene pools of unique horses within their time and region! For example, say R1b-Z2109 Eastern Bell Beaker wanted a specific trait[say strong legs for example] found only in Botai, or Mongolian, or Caucasus horses, or even western Iberia. They would have been able to relay that information through there territory.

    BTW
    I keep asking for Corded Ware R1b to be compared with Hungarian Bell Beaker Eastern R1b-Z2109+ like the one mentioned in Bell Beaker Blogger. Seems like no one wants to tackle the project, to un-conflate the two.
    Last edited by Silesian; 09-20-2020 at 01:05 PM.
    Central Europe East (YBP 12K-18K+/-)--Palćolithic Yamnaya like derived/related samples>R1b-Z2103+>R1b-Z2110+ -Yamnaya-3300–2600 BC, Catacomb-2800–2200 BC, Csepel Island Hungary- Eastern Bell Beakers-2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka-2700—2100 BC, Karagash-Khazakhstan 3018-2887 BC- Sarmatian-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....newly added outliers--R1b-L52 Corded Ware & R1b-Z2109 Sintashta !

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Try telling someone that once upon a time redheaded Iranic speaking people used to live in modern day Khakassia, people will think you're part of the Ancient Aliens crew (who did make an episode about Sintashta actually).
    It's not that most people wouldn't believe you; they just wouldn't care. Most people lack the requisite background knowledge to even contextualize what you're saying. You think they've heard of Khakassia or Iranic? Lol, they would have no idea what you're talking about.

    I assure you most people have never even heard of Indo-European and don't realize that English and Hindi are related. They couldn't point to the Black Sea on a map. What's child's play to us is unearthed arcana to your average Joe.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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