DF27 aDNA Discussion Thread

[Webb]

I wanted to start a thread to capture the DF27 aDNA samples as we seem to be finally seeing some. Sometimes it the sample calls get lost in a paper where, such as the Viking Paper, there are numerous samples and those threads aren't devoted to DF27. These are the calls by Alex Williamson from the Viking Paper:

VK147 0.822 R-Y75899 R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>BY907>FGC14113

VK166 4.498 R-BY45170 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>ZS312>Z262>M167>Z264>Z205>CTS606>CTS5337
>CTS3555>Z29713>~22225069-T-A>BY6257

VK329 1.195 R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450>Z295/S1217>S25783>CTS4065>S16864

VK365 0.764 R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3289>Y6954>Y6951>4261976-T-TGCGG>Y15636

VK403 1.49 R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>ZS312>Z262>M167>Z264>Z205>~22224168-A-C
>Z206/S235

VK87 3.021 R-Z198 R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>ZS312>Z262


This is a link to Alex's original post:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post701624

[Sean Deven Vincent]

Knowing that my lines pre-historical cousins came from the more northerly, north german plain is helpful. (for personal familial reasons I want to scour the early gravesites in Kiel someday....) The Longobord angle is interesting and also possibly helpful if they were indeed among the z195 camp. My dna has shown I am part of the north, of the DF27 north-south axis.

[razyn]

I wanted to start a thread to capture the DF27 aDNA samples as we seem to be finally seeing some. Sometimes it the sample calls get lost in a paper where, such as the Viking Paper, there are numerous samples and those threads aren't devoted to DF27. These are the calls by Alex Williamson from the Viking Paper:

VK329 1.195 R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450>Z295/S1217>S25783>CTS4065>S16864

I was interested in that one for several years, mainly because it seemed fairly high-level but wasn't showing up very often (especially at FTDNA); and it was slow to get onto various trees. You (Webb) were one of the early customers for the single-SNP test for it. Be that as it may, I'm glad it has turned out to be detectable, and detected, in aDNA. Since we started looking for it (IIRC, in March of 2014 -- after Chromo2 chip results had identified a few anonymized samples bearing it) it has seemed to be widespread, but thin on the ground almost everywhere. Dare I say, reflecting the Viking lifestyle? Nej, tak. I dare not.

[Webb]

I was interested in that one for several years, mainly because it seemed fairly high-level but wasn't showing up very often (especially at FTDNA); and it was slow to get onto various trees. You (Webb) were one of the early customers for the single-SNP test for it. Be that as it may, I'm glad it has turned out to be detectable, and detected, in aDNA. Since we started looking for it (IIRC, in March of 2014 -- after Chromo2 chip results had identified a few anonymized samples bearing it) it has seemed to be widespread, but thin on the ground almost everywhere. Dare I say, reflecting the Viking lifestyle? Nej, tak. I dare not.

Something else interesting is sample:

VK147 0.822 R-Y75899 R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>BY907>FGC14113

Alex lists the final for this one as R-Y75899, which is the DF17 Ireland/Scotland cluster, which includes two members here at Anthrogenica.

[Gray Fox]

A couple of m167's? Who'd have thunk?!

[TigerMW]

You guys have plowed through the "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years" by Olalde, right? I found this in the supplement trying to find more info R1b-P312 people.

"Only one Bronze Age male, esp005.SG (7), had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-DF27 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a) and he was positive for the mutation. Two Bronze Age males, I6470 and I3997, had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z195 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a1), with I6470 being negative and I3997 positive. Eleven Bronze Age males had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z225 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a5), with only VAD001 being positive for the mutation (one Iron Age male, I3320, is also positive for this mutation). We thus detect three Bronze Age males who belonged to DF27 (154, 155), confirming its presence in Bronze Age Iberia. The other Iberian Bronze Age males could belong to DF27 as well, but the extremely low recovery rate of this SNP in our data set prevented us to study its true distribution."

Almost any of these studies that show R1b-P312 people may not be picking up DF27 nor ZZ12. There could be a lot of folks that are ZZ12 that look like P312.

[Webb]

You guys have plowed through the "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years" by Olalde, right? I found this in the supplement trying to find more info R1b-P312 people.

"Only one Bronze Age male, esp005.SG (7), had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-DF27 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a) and he was positive for the mutation. Two Bronze Age males, I6470 and I3997, had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z195 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a1), with I6470 being negative and I3997 positive. Eleven Bronze Age males had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z225 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a5), with only VAD001 being positive for the mutation (one Iron Age male, I3320, is also positive for this mutation). We thus detect three Bronze Age males who belonged to DF27 (154, 155), confirming its presence in Bronze Age Iberia. The other Iberian Bronze Age males could belong to DF27 as well, but the extremely low recovery rate of this SNP in our data set prevented us to study its true distribution."

Almost any of these studies that show R1b-P312 people may not be picking up DF27 nor ZZ12. There could be a lot of folks that are ZZ12 that look like P312.

Plus the two Sicilian Bell Beaker samples were Z195 and the Alsace Bronze Age sample was Z225.

[R.Rocca]

You guys have plowed through the "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years" by Olalde, right? I found this in the supplement trying to find more info R1b-P312 people.

"Only one Bronze Age male, esp005.SG (7), had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-DF27 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a) and he was positive for the mutation. Two Bronze Age males, I6470 and I3997, had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z195 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a1), with I6470 being negative and I3997 positive. Eleven Bronze Age males had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z225 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a5), with only VAD001 being positive for the mutation (one Iron Age male, I3320, is also positive for this mutation). We thus detect three Bronze Age males who belonged to DF27 (154, 155), confirming its presence in Bronze Age Iberia. The other Iberian Bronze Age males could belong to DF27 as well, but the extremely low recovery rate of this SNP in our data set prevented us to study its true distribution."

Almost any of these studies that show R1b-P312 people may not be picking up DF27 nor ZZ12. There could be a lot of folks that are ZZ12 that look like P312.

Yes, it is a well known issue. The locations for DF27 and U152 are not picked up by most of the aDNA studies, so we are forced to look for downstream markers. The ones that that are DF27* and U152* can only be called down to P312.

[JoeyP37]

23andMe has the same problem; one of my cousins is a DF27 Tipperary Ryan and he's only given R-P312 as his designation.

[razyn]

The locations for DF27 and U152 are not picked up by most of the aDNA studies, so we are forced to look for downstream markers.

Sometimes they are picked up, and put back down. Because derived calls for those mutations could be false positives, caused by deamination. And if they could be, the default assumption (per their sometimes-stated criteria, a pre-existing condition) is that they are false positives. No-call is less likely to get you denied tenure than wrong-call. But this set of blinders helps to make the back story for several important haplogroups, including "brothers" DF27 and U152, a slow plot to develop. Especially in peer-reviewed academic literature, which is pretty slow at the best of times.