Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 71

Thread: DF27 aDNA Discussion Thread

  1. #41
    Registered Users
    Posts
    30
    Sex
    Nationality
    Chile
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF27 > FT11440
    mtDNA (M)
    C1b13b

    Chile Spanish Empire (1506-1701) Italy 1861-1946
    My sub-branch of DF27 (under zz19>a2146>ph133) is heavily populated by germans, netherlanders and french, and curiously you dont see many spaniards outside my particular branch PH1503. PH1503 is a big block of equivalent snps (like 20), and I suspect that we need more french testers to break it. In the ftdna df27 proyect someone tell me that PH1503 maybe (based on the result distribution compared to others) enter later than other df27 branches with gauls or even goths. Maybe is, may be not, but appears to me very logical to think on different waves.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Baraona For This Useful Post:

     Dalluin (10-12-2020),  jstephan (10-16-2020),  sktibo (10-08-2020)

  3. #42
    Silver Class Member
    Posts
    4,643
    Sex
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA (M)
    T2B-T152C

    England Scotland Poland Germany Canada Quebec Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    The high DF27 percentages in Spain and France is definitely not due to a group such as the Visigoths. That is a group that arrived in Spain in the Roman period. DF27 was already in Spain thousands of years prior to them and any group that could be defined as Germanic. The hot spot of DF27 in France is in the southern part with it being highest along the border of Spain. That is an area that hasn't always been divided as it is now.

    One of the reasons that I am creating a table of the Olalde et al. 2019 study specimens that lack of calls of DF27, Z195, and Z225 is because the lack of those calls means that many of those specimens would have easily shown to be positive for DF27 if there had been a call for DF27 and/or Z195.
    Ah darn, but I looked up the origin of my surname once and it said "visigothic" ! Oh well..

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     Webb (10-16-2020)

  5. #43
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,302
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    If the DNA is decayed then there is nothing to capture. Therefore it makes no difference if an SNP is included in a test. Which means we have no idea if an SNP is negative or positive since there is no result when the DNA is decayed.
    Yes, I understand that if the DNA is damaged then there can't be a read. I think there are two separate issues at play here. Razyn was alluding to the no call at DF27 and other subclades under DF27 that aren't being tested for and you were talking about damaged dna. My point was that if Z195 or an equivalent is included in the 1240K test this is roughly around 40% of DF27 using current Ytree sample numbers. If Z229/Z225 is tested, then we are up to about 45% of DF27 samples using current Ytree sample numbers, included in the 1240K test. This still leaves 55% not included. If you use snp's instead of people, the percentages will be different, but I don't have the time to count snp's. I think the biggest factor at play, is that for most of these studies, a call at R-M269 down to U106/P312 is enough for these academics. Some of it may be that P312 is as far as that particular sample could be called, but I think a call of P312 in the recent rash of papers is probably good enough for most of these authors, whereas, most of us would prefer to see the samples called as far downstream as possible.

  6. #44
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,724
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b S21184, BY50830+
    mtDNA (M)
    U4b1a2 - FGS
    Y-DNA (M)
    ?
    mtDNA (P)
    I2

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Many many years ago I had a theory about DF27 and Goths, but Razyn laughed at me. So I never brought it up again. My emotional wounds were starting to heal, but thanks to your post, I have just called to make an appointment with my therapist. Joking aside, while I think most DF27 in Spain predates Goths, I am starting to speculate that our Germanic tribes who went wandering, were a conglomerate of many various haplogroups. We now have quite a few Bronze Age DF27 samples from Spain, so we know it was there early. The oldest sample, however, is still the Quedlinburg, Germany sample, from around 2500 B.C., which is in the heart of Germany. One of the questions not yet answered, is how far North did P312, in this case DF27 get during P312's maximal geographic spread? Was DF27 a large factor in the Belgic tribes? We have the DF27 Alsace sample from around 1900 B.C., which is close. The Rhine Delta has flooded and been cleared and repopulated many times, and there is evidence of flooding mitigation as early as 500 B.C.. Were the Belgae a mixed bag of haplogroups, the Frisians, then the Franks? I know that I wasn't as surprised by the CTS4065 sample as I was the M167/SRY2627 samples.
    I think the answer is both. The late Bronze and Iron Age brought DF27+ to northern Germany and southern Scandinavia, but there were obviously already people there. DF27+ was just a minor addition to the area, but indeed we can see some of these branches of DF27+ with living members in north and south Europe have 3000 year old splits. Tollense was evidence of that, even if the remains we have died in battle. We have no context if similar men had already moved to adjacent areas, settled and had families, but there is no reason to believe this wasn't the case, based on what we know about the spread of relics and metallurgy.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ADW_1981 For This Useful Post:

     sktibo (10-16-2020),  Webb (10-16-2020)

  8. #45
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,302
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Ah darn, but I looked up the origin of my surname once and it said "visigothic" ! Oh well..
    This has resulted in five therapy sessions.

  9. #46
    Silver Class Member
    Posts
    4,643
    Sex
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA (M)
    T2B-T152C

    England Scotland Poland Germany Canada Quebec Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    This has resulted in five therapy sessions.
    Can you refer me to a visigothic speciality therapist?

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     jstephan (10-16-2020),  sheepslayer (10-16-2020),  Webb (10-16-2020)

  11. #47
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    3,413
    Sex
    Location
    Beira Douro
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese highlander
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y31991>FT17866
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (xH20a)

    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Ah darn, but I looked up the origin of my surname once and it said "visigothic" ! Oh well..
    To be fair a large chunk of west Iberian surnames are of Visigothic origin since their names were extremely popular during the middle ages. Mine is one of such surnames. Ironically Visigothic presence in (north)west Iberia was very light and barely relevant
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA+Hallstatt,82.2
    Berber_EMA,10
    Rome_Imperial,7
    Levant_Roman,0.8

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     jstephan (10-16-2020),  sktibo (10-16-2020)

  13. #48
    Silver Class Member
    Posts
    4,643
    Sex
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA (M)
    T2B-T152C

    England Scotland Poland Germany Canada Quebec Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    To be fair a large chunk of west Iberian surnames are of Visigothic origin since their names were extremely popular during the middle ages. Mine is one of such surnames. Ironically Visigothic presence in (north)west Iberia was very light and barely relevant
    I'll try not to get too attached then

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     Ruderico (10-16-2020)

  15. #49
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    3,413
    Sex
    Location
    Beira Douro
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese highlander
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y31991>FT17866
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (xH20a)

    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I'll try not to get too attached then
    I did shed a tear when I learnt my haplogroup, surname and genetic profile were all probably completely unrelated
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA+Hallstatt,82.2
    Berber_EMA,10
    Rome_Imperial,7
    Levant_Roman,0.8

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     jstephan (10-16-2020),  sktibo (10-16-2020),  Webb (10-16-2020)

  17. #50
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,449
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Yes, I understand that if the DNA is damaged then there can't be a read. I think there are two separate issues at play here. Razyn was alluding to the no call at DF27 and other subclades under DF27 that aren't being tested for and you were talking about damaged dna. My point was that if Z195 or an equivalent is included in the 1240K test this is roughly around 40% of DF27 using current Ytree sample numbers. If Z229/Z225 is tested, then we are up to about 45% of DF27 samples using current Ytree sample numbers, included in the 1240K test. This still leaves 55% not included. If you use snp's instead of people, the percentages will be different, but I don't have the time to count snp's. I think the biggest factor at play, is that for most of these studies, a call at R-M269 down to U106/P312 is enough for these academics. Some of it may be that P312 is as far as that particular sample could be called, but I think a call of P312 in the recent rash of papers is probably good enough for most of these authors, whereas, most of us would prefer to see the samples called as far downstream as possible.
    Umm, if the DNA is damaged there is a no-call. Same thing. So if Razyn were alluding to a no-call at DF27, which he wasn't, then it would be in essence the same thing that I am talking about. MikeWWW was talking about DF27 and ZZ12 not being picked up. So, in essence, MikeWWW and I are talking about the same thing which is important SNPs that would identify a specimen as DF27+ not being identified as such due to no-calls.

    Z195 also gets a no-call in most of the specimens of the Olalde et al. 2018 and 2019 studies. I gave you the reason for the no-call but you somehow believe it is irrelevant when it is actually extremely important. When a no-call exists for an SNP that is included in a test of ancient DNA is mostly due to damaged DNA.

    I looked at 61 of the Iberian specimens that were positive for L51, or equivalent, or downstream SNPs. These all have steppe autosomal DNA also. Here's the important part, only 2, out of 61, have a call for Z195 even though they were all tested for Z195.

    Since we are in agreement that if Z195 was called then we could conclude that we found about 40% of the DF27 positive specimens but 96.7% of the specimens don't have a call for Z195. That's a 96.7% no-call rate of Z195 for those specimens.

    Want to guess what the no-call rate is for DF27? It is 58/61 which is 95%. So the no-call rate for Z195 was actually worse than DF27.

    39 out of 61 of those specimens have a no-call for Z225. That is almost a 64% no-call rate for Z225.

    39 out of 61 of those specimens have a no-call for P312. That is almost a 64% no-call rate for P312.

    You have stated, "It seems that there isn’t a problem calling Z225 or Z195" and that is why I am pointing out that some of the studies do have a problem calling Z225 or Z195.

    I'll also mention here that EHU002 from El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León dated to 2562–2306 cal BCE is positive for P312 but does not have a read for DF27 or Z195 meaning we have no idea if it is negative or positive for DF27 or Z195. With all of the DF27 found in Bronze Age Iberia there is no reason to think this specimen would be negative for DF27 if it had a read on DF27.

    Razyn was talking about authors of the academic studies throwing out C>T and G>A results a priori. I0806 from Quedlinburg and I12209 dated 1368–1211 BCE from La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León are two perfect examples of that. They are both derived for DF27 which is a G>A mutation and because of that they are not considered DF27+ in the academic world.

    No one. Not a single person was talking about subclades under DF27 that aren't being tested for.

    I think you have, or had, a flawed understanding of what no-calls are and why they exist if included in a test. DF27, Z195, and Z225 are included in all of the 1240K testing of the ancient specimens. Otherwise there would never be a call for those positions. There is also a spreadsheet, that I linked to earlier, that mentions them being included in the 1240K test.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 10-17-2020 at 05:37 PM.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to ArmandoR1b For This Useful Post:

     razyn (10-20-2020)

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Nepal Related Discussion Thread
    By poi in forum Southern
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: 11-14-2020, 06:08 AM
  2. New DNA Papers - General Discussion Thread
    By newtoboard in forum General
    Replies: 2463
    Last Post: 11-03-2020, 08:07 AM
  3. K1b2b Discussion Thread
    By alchemist223 in forum K
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-24-2020, 07:58 AM
  4. Jewish Discussion Thread
    By Erik in forum Jewish
    Replies: 261
    Last Post: 05-17-2018, 04:47 PM
  5. HV13 Discussion Thread
    By Humanist in forum HV
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-08-2015, 02:02 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •