Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 72

Thread: DF27 aDNA Discussion Thread

  1. #61
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,449
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by alejandromb92 View Post
    By experience i think the spanish region with more frecuency of L21 is Galicia, also according this study by Joe Flood (The phylogenealogy of R-L21: four and a half millennia of expansion and redistribution)



    I have saw on FB a lot of galicians and some other iberians with L21, but never a basque, there may be some with L21, but a 1/5 of them is a high % in my opinion.
    Joe Flood should post the source for his data. It is important to know how the data is acquired to be able to see why there is a difference where there is a difference. If you read posts about Joe Flood by rms2 I would not take the data provided by Joe Flood at face value. Joe Flood didn't do the study himself. I would like to know where he got the numbers for L21 in Galicia since only one of the academic studies that I checked have Galicia as a region that was studied for L21 and the rate is different from what was posted by Joe Flood.

    If you go through the data of Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012 and calculate the percentages you will have the following result

    Code:
    Region Sample size L21
    Bigorre 44 6.82%
    Béarn 56 14.29%
    Chalosse 58 10.34%
    Admix Zone 44 27.27%
    Navarre Labourdin 66 13.64%
    Soule 53 5.66%
    Roncal 53 20.75%
    Central/Western Navarre 60 15.00%
    North/Western Navarre 51 9.80%
    Gipuskoa 47 19.15%
    South/Western Gipuskoa 57 22.81%
    Araba 51 21.57%
    Bizkaia 57 12.28%
    Western Bizkaia 19 10.53%
    Cantabria 18 0.00%
    Burgos 20 0.00%
    La Rioja 54 11.11%
    North Aragon 27 3.70%
    The Basque speaking regions are Soule, Roncal, Central/Western Navarre , North/Western Navarre, Gipuskoa, South/Western Gipuskoa, Araba, Bizkaia and they total 429 samples.

    However, if you look at Valverde et al. 2015 only 2.05% of 341 samples from the Basque Country are derived for L21. That is the study that included the rate of L21 in Galicia which it shows to be at 7.14% which is less than what shows in the graph by Joe Flood.

    So now we need a much larger study of the Basque Country, Galicia, and surrounding regions to get a better idea of the rate of L21 in those regions since the two studies we have of L21 in the Basque Country contradict each other and both have hundreds of samples.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to ArmandoR1b For This Useful Post:

     alejandromb92 (10-25-2020)

  3. #62
    Registered Users
    Posts
    240
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L21

    Venezuela
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Joe Flood should post the source for his data. It is important to know how the data is acquired to be able to see why there is a difference where there is a difference. If you read posts about Joe Flood by rms2 I would not take the data provided by Joe Flood at face value. Joe Flood didn't do the study himself. I would like to know where he got the numbers for L21 in Galicia since only one of the academic studies that I checked have Galicia as a region that was studied for L21 and the rate is different from what was posted by Joe Flood.

    If you go through the data of Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012 and calculate the percentages you will have the following result

    Code:
    Region Sample size L21
    Bigorre 44 6.82%
    Béarn 56 14.29%
    Chalosse 58 10.34%
    Admix Zone 44 27.27%
    Navarre Labourdin 66 13.64%
    Soule 53 5.66%
    Roncal 53 20.75%
    Central/Western Navarre 60 15.00%
    North/Western Navarre 51 9.80%
    Gipuskoa 47 19.15%
    South/Western Gipuskoa 57 22.81%
    Araba 51 21.57%
    Bizkaia 57 12.28%
    Western Bizkaia 19 10.53%
    Cantabria 18 0.00%
    Burgos 20 0.00%
    La Rioja 54 11.11%
    North Aragon 27 3.70%
    The Basque speaking regions are Soule, Roncal, Central/Western Navarre , North/Western Navarre, Gipuskoa, South/Western Gipuskoa, Araba, Bizkaia and they total 429 samples.

    However, if you look at Valverde et al. 2015 only 2.05% of 341 samples from the Basque Country are derived for L21. That is the study that included the rate of L21 in Galicia which it shows to be at 7.14% which is less than what shows in the graph by Joe Flood.

    So now we need a much larger study of the Basque Country, Galicia, and surrounding regions to get a better idea of the rate of L21 in those regions since the two studies we have of L21 in the Basque Country contradict each other and both have hundreds of samples.
    Interesting study. I know this is not comparable to this kind of studies, almost all the basque males i've met, taking account the ones here in Anthrogenica, fell in R-DF27 (being most of them R-Z195, and a few R-ZZ12, like banned user GASKA). I hearded in another forum that a woman had his basque-uruguayan husband tested and got positive for L21, but this and Che Guevara are the only basque or people with basque-lineage that score L21.

    This would make sense because L21, didn't arrived to Iberia b.C. almost for sure, and when it did, it was in Galicia.

  4. #63
    Registered Users
    Posts
    47
    Sex
    Omitted
    Ethnicity
    Italian-Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1-L22
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2b2

    Brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by alejandromb92 View Post
    Interesting study. I know this is not comparable to this kind of studies, almost all the basque males i've met, taking account the ones here in Anthrogenica, fell in R-DF27 (being most of them R-Z195, and a few R-ZZ12, like banned user GASKA). I hearded in another forum that a woman had his basque-uruguayan husband tested and got positive for L21, but this and Che Guevara are the only basque or people with basque-lineage that score L21.

    This would make sense because L21, didn't arrived to Iberia b.C. almost for sure, and when it did, it was in Galicia.
    I have a question, which R1b subclade celticized (i.e. brought celtic languages to) the Iberian Peninsula? I remember reading that DF27 was already there before the celtic migration, not sure if that's right.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to cheshire For This Useful Post:

     alejandromb92 (10-26-2020)

  6. #64
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,982
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by cheshire View Post
    II remember reading that DF27 was already there before the celtic migration, not sure if that's right.
    That might hinge on whether anything that actually happened could realistically be called a "Celtic migration." DF27 did migrate (into, not initially out of, Iberia), at least by 2500 BC. And it was probably a prevalent YDNA haplogroup in a proto-Indo-European speaking, migrant population, that wasn't along the lines of Greek, Albanian or Persian. But narrowing some of those migrants down to a (linguistically defined) Celtic subset has to have happened a good bit more recently than 2500 BC. The language family isn't as old as the original DF27 (or higher, like ZZ11, P312, or M151) migration.

    After they got to western Europe, staked out their several and differentiated clan territories, and chatted with each other for a good many centuries, you could start thinking about who might reasonbly be considered "Celtic" and who mightn't.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     ArmandoR1b (10-25-2020),  cheshire (10-26-2020)

  8. #65
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,449
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by alejandromb92 View Post
    Interesting study. I know this is not comparable to this kind of studies, almost all the basque males i've met, taking account the ones here in Anthrogenica, fell in R-DF27 (being most of them R-Z195, and a few R-ZZ12, like banned user GASKA). I hearded in another forum that a woman had his basque-uruguayan husband tested and got positive for L21, but this and Che Guevara are the only basque or people with basque-lineage that score L21.

    This would make sense because L21, didn't arrived to Iberia b.C. almost for sure, and when it did, it was in Galicia.
    I don't put much merit in anecdotes most of the time unless there is a large number of them and even then it depends on the situation. In this case the studies carry a ton more weight. 2% L21 in Basques and 7% in Galicia sounds more like what is what is accurate. I truly doubt that L21 didn't arrived to Iberia b.C. since France has a good amount of L21 and France borders Spain and the two haven't always been politically separate and L21 is about 4200 years old.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ArmandoR1b For This Useful Post:

     alejandromb92 (10-26-2020),  razyn (10-26-2020)

  10. #66
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,302
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    In the study I supplied a link to is a spreadsheet in the supplementary documents showing sample sizes per region and L21 is included in the findings:

    GSO, South/Western Gipuskoa: 57 samples, 13 of which were L21, this is a percentage of 22.8%. 32 were P312, 4 were M153, and 4 were SRY2627. U152, L2, and L20 had 0 each.
    GUI, Gipuskoa: 47 samples, 9 of which were L21, 19.1%.
    RON, Roncal: 53 samples, 11 of which were L21, 20.7%.
    ALA, Araba: 51 samples, 11 of which were L21, 21.5%.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Webb For This Useful Post:

     Melstrom (10-26-2020)

  12. #67
    Registered Users
    Posts
    240
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L21

    Venezuela
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I don't put much merit in anecdotes most of the time unless there is a large number of them and even then it depends on the situation. In this case the studies carry a ton more weight. 2% L21 in Basques and 7% in Galicia sounds more like what is what is accurate. I truly doubt that L21 didn't arrived to Iberia b.C. since France has a good amount of L21 and France borders Spain and the two haven't always been politically separate and L21 is about 4200 years old.
    Well i am not talking about a large number, but there is a lot of people from Euskadi and Navarra who shares their results on FB, also other people from different regions of Spain, also Portugal, and like i said, that ~20% of L21 in Euskadi is strange and very unlike from my point of view.

    I always wondered how L21 got to Iberia, and the most shared theory online is through briton migrations to Britonia, Gallaecia. Others think that it could be visigoth (carrying clades common outside Ireland, Scotland and England), but i doubt it, or through Bell Beakers, which i doubt it too, considering that there are many Bell Beaker samples in Iberia and no L21 has yet found, only DF27 and some U152. What is your opinion on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by cheshire View Post
    I have a question, which R1b subclade celticized (i.e. brought celtic languages to) the Iberian Peninsula? I remember reading that DF27 was already there before the celtic migration, not sure if that's right.
    Hi bro. It depends of what "celticized" and "celtic" means for you and others, that term is very elastic, but i get you, and it would be R-DF27, through migrations waves of Bell Beakers and Urnfield, both strangely carrying R-DF27, and some Bell Beakers were R-L2 (R-U152).

    By the way, i answered your last PM, i don't really know if you received it. Best regards my friend.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to alejandromb92 For This Useful Post:

     cheshire (10-26-2020)

  14. #68
    Registered Users
    Posts
    47
    Sex
    Omitted
    Ethnicity
    Italian-Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1-L22
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2b2

    Brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    That might hinge on whether anything that actually happened could realistically be called a "Celtic migration." DF27 did migrate (into, not initially out of, Iberia), at least by 2500 BC. And it was probably a prevalent YDNA haplogroup in a proto-Indo-European speaking, migrant population, that wasn't along the lines of Greek, Albanian or Persian. But narrowing some of those migrants down to a (linguistically defined) Celtic subset has to have happened a good bit more recently than 2500 BC. The language family isn't as old as the original DF27 (or higher, like ZZ11, P312, or M151) migration.

    After they got to western Europe, staked out their several and differentiated clan territories, and chatted with each other for a good many centuries, you could start thinking about who might reasonbly be considered "Celtic" and who mightn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by alejandromb92 View Post
    Well i am not talking about a large number, but there is a lot of people from Euskadi and Navarra who shares their results on FB, also other people from different regions of Spain, also Portugal, and like i said, that ~20% of L21 in Euskadi is strange and very unlike from my point of view.

    I always wondered how L21 got to Iberia, and the most shared theory online is through briton migrations to Britonia, Gallaecia. Others think that it could be visigoth (carrying clades common outside Ireland, Scotland and England), but i doubt it, or through Bell Beakers, which i doubt it too, considering that there are many Bell Beaker samples in Iberia and no L21 has yet found, only DF27 and some U152. What is your opinion on this?



    Hi bro. It depends of what "celticized" and "celtic" means for you and others, that term is very elastic, but i get you, and it would be R-DF27, through migrations waves of Bell Beakers and Urnfield, both strangely carrying R-DF27, and some Bell Beakers were R-L2 (R-U152).

    By the way, i answered your last PM, i don't really know if you received it. Best regards my friend.
    Interesting. I kinda knew Celts didn't migrate all at once, but I had the misperception that Iberia was already full of DF27 Beakers and that the Hallstatt Celtic culture had come later, through a small group that would celticize everybody else, and that they were probably L21 or a distinct subclade downstream of DF27.
    I also thought that was the reason why there are a good amount of L21 spread throughout the peninsula esp. the northwestern parts.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to cheshire For This Useful Post:

     alejandromb92 (10-26-2020)

  16. #69
    Registered Users
    Posts
    240
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L21

    Venezuela
    Quote Originally Posted by cheshire View Post
    Interesting. I kinda knew Celts didn't migrate all at once, but I had the misperception that Iberia was already full of DF27 Beakers and that the Hallstatt Celtic culture had come later, through a small group that would celticize everybody else, and that they were probably L21 or a distinct subclade downstream of DF27.
    I also thought that was the reason why there are a good amount of L21 spread throughout the peninsula esp. the northwestern parts.
    It was "full" of R-DF27 and some R-U152, but i consider Bell Beakers as a proto-celtic culture. The supose true arrival of celts to Iberia were with Urnfield, but they were the same indo-european related people as Bell Beakers. Seems to be that Urnfield in Iberia were all R-DF27 (according to samples found yet).

    R-L21 in Iberia is not common, but if there is a place where you can find a decent number of them, is definitely in Galicia.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to alejandromb92 For This Useful Post:

     cheshire (10-26-2020)

  18. #70
    Registered Users
    Posts
    47
    Sex
    Omitted
    Ethnicity
    Italian-Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1-L22
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2b2

    Brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by alejandromb92 View Post
    It was "full" of R-DF27 and some R-U152, but i consider Bell Beakers as a proto-celtic culture. The supose true arrival of celts to Iberia were with Urnfield, but they were the same indo-european related people as Bell Beakers. Seems to be that Urnfield in Iberia were all R-DF27 (according to samples found yet).

    R-L21 in Iberia is not common, but if there is a place where you can find a decent number of them, is definitely in Galicia.
    Maybe from Insular ppl who fleed the Anglo-Saxon invasion? (sorry for the dumb hypothesis lol)
    But aren't some L21 subclades specific to the Iberian Peninsula to the point that these are kinda long disconnected from the Insular ones?

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to cheshire For This Useful Post:

     alejandromb92 (10-27-2020)

Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Nepal Related Discussion Thread
    By poi in forum Southern
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: 11-14-2020, 06:08 AM
  2. New DNA Papers - General Discussion Thread
    By newtoboard in forum General
    Replies: 2463
    Last Post: 11-03-2020, 08:07 AM
  3. K1b2b Discussion Thread
    By alchemist223 in forum K
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-24-2020, 07:58 AM
  4. Jewish Discussion Thread
    By Erik in forum Jewish
    Replies: 261
    Last Post: 05-17-2018, 04:47 PM
  5. HV13 Discussion Thread
    By Humanist in forum HV
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-08-2015, 02:02 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •