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Thread: Did Scythians carry and spread R1b?

  1. #11
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    I should mention that historically the Scythians were an umbrella of groups. It's not possible to find out whether they carried R1b among them or not but I suppose depending where they migrated, I'm sure they might have mixed with populations where R1b was around (Like In Persia and Anatolia for example).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    I should mention that historically the Scythians were an umbrella of groups. It's not possible to find out whether they carried R1b among them or not but I suppose depending where they migrated, I'm sure they might have mixed with populations where R1b was around (Like In Persia and Anatolia for example).
    The main issue with connecting haplogroups to ancient groups such as the Scythians, is that there's too many variables that are unaccounted for. All too often people forget that haplogroups track prehistorical migrations, and signify prehistorical migrations, and cannot be attributable to historical groups. Unless of course, a specific subclade within a haplogroup coincides with a historical migration.

    But even then caution must be taken, because even if a given haplogroup correlates to a historical migration, it doesn't necessarily imply that those people were the first to carry it nor does it imply that those same ancient groups didn't carry additional haplogroups.
    Last edited by ZephyrousMandaru; 02-22-2014 at 01:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru View Post
    The main issue with connecting haplogroups to ancient groups such as the Scythians, is that there's too many variables that are unaccounted for. All too often people forget that haplogroups track historical migrations. These haplogroups signify prehistorical , and cannot be attributable to historical groups. Unless of course, a specific subclade within a haplogroup coincides with a historical migration.

    But even then caution must be taken, because even if a given haplogroup correlates to a historical migration, it doesn't necessarily imply that those people were the first to carry it nor does it imply that those same ancient groups didn't carry additional haplogroups.
    Completely agree, I understand making some speculations here and there. But sometimes I see posts where people go a little too deep connecting things in recent history such as these ancient groups and their languages to haplogroup lineages. Two different subjects that should remain separate for most part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    did the Greeks have contact with the Scythians.
    Plenty. There were Greek colonies along the northern Black Sea coast, so Greeks there were in contact with the Scythians on the steppe. That is how Herodotus could give a detailed description of those Scythians who by his day lived on the European steppe, and he knew of others on the Asian steppe. http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-09-2014 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    No.
    Do you not accept what I said above? A sample from the Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture produced one Y-DNA R1a1.

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    I also think it depends on how you define them. Were the Scythians just large clans or was they an elite who ruled whoever they conquered. If they were a distinct elite how did they see the ragtag mix of whoever they absorbed? Were the absorbed people then morphed into Scythians and saw themselves as the same as their elite after a generation or so? I have always imagined that in their initial more undeveloped state Yamanaya and derived groups might have just been large patrilineal clans, especially when they were moving into the vast open spaces of the parts of the steppe that had not been settled before the invention of wagons etc. However, this sort of system tends to become less absolute and finally totally broken down as social structure gets more complex. Genetics seems to suggest that the non-IE steppe peoples from the east in later times absorbed a lot of other peoples. Question is did the IE steppe peoples develop towards that sort of system or did they remain just large clans.

    Clearly too when IEs moved out of the steppe into already well populated area and settled and ruled rather than just raided, they could no longer operate on a simple clan=the whole population basis such as might have been possible in the open steppes. In places like Iran and India they they must have morphed how they operated.

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    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615
    It took almost three years-Sarmatian R1b branch
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y21707/
    Supplementary Fig. 11. Model posteriors for descent from Scythian populations for 86 contemporary human populations in Central Asia.

    http://www.nature.com/article-assets...ms14615-s1.pdf
    Last edited by Silesian; 03-25-2017 at 07:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Discuss please.
    Primerily I always thought they were mostly R1a.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Plenty. There were Greek colonies along the northern Black Sea coast, so Greeks there were in contact with the Scythians on the steppe. That is how Herodotus could give a detailed description of those Scythians who by his day lived on the European steppe, and he knew of others on the Asian steppe. http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html
    Miss you! Answer, yes!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    I should mention that historically the Scythians were an umbrella of groups. It's not possible to find out whether they carried R1b among them or not but I suppose depending where they migrated, I'm sure they might have mixed with populations where R1b was around (Like In Persia and Anatolia for example).
    Do you think they could be connected with Yamnaya?

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