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Thread: Is there any strong argument against a South Arabian origin of Ethio-Semitic?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Drobbah is referencing this old paper, I believe. Not many are aware of it, it's quite obscure. I myself encountered it through Lank many many years ago and made it known to the forum only recently. Basically, it finds that the word for camel, Geel, in our language comes from OSA which seems pretty damning as to where camel domestication came from. But, honestly, someone else can share some data they have that I haven't seen but I'm not aware of any clear evidence that camels came to Somalia through South-Arabia directly. Could have easily been from South-Arabia to Northeast Sudan or Eritrea and then went down to Somalis where our camel herding traditions seem pretty similar to those of Afars, for instance. I hunted for the word for "camel" in Beja, Saho and Afar ages back with no luck, just wanted to see if it could be linked to the OSA word in Somali.
    Camel related vocabulary that are of Semitic origin from the paper:
    NS gel m. ‘camel’ has -ee- < -aa-, that is still preserved, e.g., in NS
    compounds like haruub-gal m. ‘vessel for milking camels’ or daba-ggalle
    m. ‘ground squirrel’ (lit. ‘having a camel tail’), etc. East Cushitic *gaala
    ‘camel’ is from Semitic *gamal- ‘id.’ and the most likely intermediary has
    been a language spoken in Southern Arabia when camels were introduced
    to the eastern Horn ca. 2000 years ago, as argued in Banti (2000: 49 f.).
    Gml ‘camel’ is well attested in Sabaic. However, the loss of -m- is not regular
    in ASA, nor in NS or any known East Cushitic language, and points to a
    different language: loss of -m- between vowels occurs several times in
    Southern Ethiosemitic and in MSA.
    NS qalin m. and qaaln f. (pl. qaalm-) ‘young camel or calf when
    it approaches sexual maturity’ (nef gel h ama l’ oo d’ yr
    Yaasiin Cismaan Keenadiid 1976: 333b), with ġ > q and -m > -n in
    syllable coda, that are regular developments. From the Semitic root
    ĠLM, attested in Sabaic ġlm ‘boy, child’, or directly from Ar. ġālim
    (participle of ġalima) or ġalim both meaning ‘excited by lust’, from
    the same root Ar. has ġillīm ‘(he-camel) excited by lust’ and ġulām
    ‘a young man, youth’. The present author already pointed out (Banti
    2000) that it also occurs in Rendille khalim m. ‘male camel calf’
    and khaalm f. ‘female camel calf’ and is thus unlikely to be a recent
    loanword. The ASA hypothesis assigns qaalin to the oldest core of
    camel-related terms that entered the eastern Horn, together with
    *gaala ‘camel’ > NS gel; in this case, the extension to bovine
    calves is a secondary development.
    The fragmentary nature of what is known about ASA and, even worse,
    about Himyaritic makes it difficult to identify many other terms as old
    loanwords from these languages. But in the four above cases, there is no
    compelling evidence for excluding a pre-Islamic origin. A more careful examination
    of the NS lexicon related to camels, building, and incense may
    yield some other findings.

    Considering the Rendille also have these terms and are mostly camel herders unlike their Borana or Samburu neighbors strengthen the case that perhaps camels were introduced in modern Somaliland, proto-Somaal speakers whether affected directly by South Arabians or indirectly via the Afar were taught camel domestication and camel-related Semitic terms?

    Also the Semitic lineages we find among the Somalis like J1 and T-M70 have appropriate tmrca's with the Arabians that date back to the time period that could have been when camels were introduced.T-Y45591 for example has a tmrca of 3000 ybp & J-Y178103 has a tmrca of 2400 ybp.Plus we already have very minor evidence of a Yemenite presence not only in the coast of Sanaag but also inland in modern Gabiley district and between Hargeisa & Berbera.


    Last edited by drobbah; 10-06-2020 at 05:31 PM.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Drobbah is referencing this old paper, I believe. Not many are aware of it, it's quite obscure. I myself encountered it through Lank many many years ago and made it known to the forum only recently. Basically, it finds that the word for camel, Geel, in our language comes from OSA which seems pretty damning as to where camel domestication came from. But, honestly, someone else can share some data they have that I haven't seen but I'm not aware of any clear evidence that camels came to Somalia through South-Arabia directly. Could have easily been from South-Arabia to Northeast Sudan or Eritrea and then went down to Somalis where our camel herding traditions seem pretty similar to those of Afars, for instance. I hunted for the word for "camel" in Beja, Saho and Afar ages back with no luck, just wanted to see if it could be linked to the OSA word in Somali.



    And correct me if I'm wrong but don't we just have 1 Eritrean sample from the rest of the Horn? And some Sudani samples. I wouldn't be so sure just yet that the T found in Somalis isn't found in the rest of the Horn.

    Update:

    And I just found the word in Afar and I'm no linguist but it clearly seems similar to the Somali word. "Gaal" or "Gaali" by the looks of it. Yeah... Wouldn't be so sure Somalis got it directly from Arabia but who knows.
    Thats very interesting.

    The word Geel/Gaal could just be an archaic Afro-Asiatic word , possibly from a common pastoral heritage. For Somalis it appears in Hawiye Clan names like ''GaalJecel'',(That which loves the Camel), Abgaal(Father of Camel) and also in several location names like Gaalkacyo etc

    Evidently ''Gaal'' is Camel in Old Somali or Af Maay, and Geel in the Somali proper seems to be a recent innovation.

    But also i found this etymology based website that suggests that it's of Proto-AfroAsiatic origin https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/et...08&root=config Not sure how reliable this is.

    About camel domestication there seems to be a couple of authors that are arguing for seperate camel domestication in the Horn of Africa from translocated wild camels of Arabia camel.png
    https://books.google.nl/books?id=_GC...siatic&f=false
    Last edited by Mirix; 10-06-2020 at 09:27 PM.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    Its definitely true that we don't have more T-M184 samples from East Africa. However, I suspect that if T is related to the introduction of camel herding we may find that the branches of T found in various Tanzanian and Kenyan groups are related or at least have a similar tmrca, as the camel populations there areas fairly weakly differentiated from those in Somalia. We just need to wait and see.
    There are rare cases of T-M184 in Uganda, and in 1 hutu/1 Tutsi from Rwanda, but I am not sure which subclades they belong to. There is also T-M184 cases reported in Zambia, Tanzania, I won't be suprised if its found in Burundi and South East RDC as well. With more samples and genetic studies in Great Lakes/South East Africa, we will know more when T-M184 arrived in East Africa.

    Note I don't want to derail this thread.
    Last edited by Alfa; 10-06-2020 at 10:53 PM.

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    I looked at (and probably posted) YDNA and MTDNA TMRCA and coalescence estimates a couple months ago when there was another Ethio-Semitic thread. You can twist the question lots of ways though, and although I don't really see any good arguments myself, if someone wants to argue because they like arguing they could say something like "Ethio-Semitic only exists in Africa, Ethio-Semitic languages formed as part of a process of ethnogenesis which occurred as the dominant semitic language of the migrants from South Arabia was laid atop the indigenous substrate".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post

    And correct me if I'm wrong but don't we just have 1 Eritrean sample from the rest of the Horn? And some Sudani samples. I wouldn't be so sure just yet that the T found in Somalis isn't found in the rest of the Horn.

    Update:

    And I just found the word in Afar and I'm no linguist but it clearly seems similar to the Somali word. "Gaal" or "Gaali" by the looks of it. Yeah... Wouldn't be so sure Somalis got it directly from Arabia but who knows.
    The 8 Sudanese samples are all Tigre and fall under the same branch of T-Y15711.Judging by the age of this clade, it could be a legit Cushitic T1a lineage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIncredibleHulk View Post
    No evidence whatsoever, and it is already been established that the Levant region is the homeland of the proto-Semitic peoples.
    Don't be such a weirdo. The poster asked if there was evidence. I then suggested 2 authors that speak of that evidence. Obviously the evidence exists......its just not sufficient for most to favor Ethiopian origins over the Levant which has MORE evidence. Hudson is a linguist actually specializing in Ethiopian languages. Bar Yosef credentials in archeology and length in the field places him among the elites. So if you want to evaluate the evidence, THESE are the guys you have to read. Please don't come to the thread, so matter of fact shooting at the messenger.

  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    Its definitely true that we don't have more T-M184 samples from East Africa. However, I suspect that if T is related to the introduction of camel herding we may find that the branches of T found in various Tanzanian and Kenyan groups are related or at least have a similar tmrca, as the camel populations there areas fairly weakly differentiated from those in Somalia. We just need to wait and see.
    Dromedary camels were domesticated in Southern Arabia according to this 2016 science article based on genetics here:
    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/24/6588

  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Camel related vocabulary that are of Semitic origin from the paper:







    Considering the Rendille also have these terms and are mostly camel herders unlike their Borana or Samburu neighbors strengthen the case that perhaps camels were introduced in modern Somaliland, proto-Somaal speakers whether affected directly by South Arabians or indirectly via the Afar were taught camel domestication and camel-related Semitic terms?

    Also the Semitic lineages we find among the Somalis like J1 and T-M70 have appropriate tmrca's with the Arabians that date back to the time period that could have been when camels were introduced.T-Y45591 for example has a tmrca of 3000 ybp & J-Y178103 has a tmrca of 2400 ybp.Plus we already have very minor evidence of a Yemenite presence not only in the coast of Sanaag but also inland in modern Gabiley district and between Hargeisa & Berbera.


    Yeah, dromedary camels were domesticated around this time period as well, so it couldn't be a simple coincidence here at all:
    In addition, despite clearly belonging to a common population extending from North Africa to Southwest Asia, populations from isolated montane regions in the south of the Arabian Peninsula showed slight genetic distinctions. Here, the geographic accessibility of the regions thus seems to have also somewhat limited the extent of the homogenizing force. Surprisingly, the populations from South Arabia show minimal genetic distance to those populations from East Africa, and not North Arabia. It likely suggests an early introduction from South Arabia into East Africa by boats, through the Red Sea. When this took place is presently unknown, but could probably be inferred in the future using methods in statistical genomics exploiting genome-wide information (e.g., the over the 1 million SNPs identified while generating the two dromedary reference genomes) (12, 13).
    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/24/6588
    Last edited by TheIncredibleHulk; 10-07-2020 at 04:30 AM.

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