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Thread: Is there any strong argument against a South Arabian origin of Ethio-Semitic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Camels were domesticated in Arabia (no one sane would argue otherwise) and most of the camel related terms in the Somali/Rendille language including the word for camel is of Semitic origin
    Kind of offf topic but were camels in Central Asia domesticated independently of Arabia (or the Horn) or is there a relation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    What kind of Semitic? Ancient South Arabian?
    There's a paper on the different sources of Semitic loanwords in Northern Somali (modern standard Somali), the paper suggested that the many words for camels were mostly of ASA origin and are also found in Rendille which is a close linguistic cousin of Somali and are mostly camel herders in Northern Kenya surrounded by cattle hearding nilotic speakers and Borana Oromo cattle herders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    I have seen this, too actually... usually from very patriotic Ethiopians, but I'll have a look for some of the papers/books I've come across on the idea of a Horn origin for Semitic languages.



    I would direct you to this thread, and to this post by Agamemnon in particular, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....t=afro-asiatic. It seems likely that Afro-asiatic languages originated in Eastern Africa and spread from there, coming full circle with the return of Semitic to form the Ethio-Semitic languages of Ethiopia and Eritrea today.



    I agree with you on the origin of Ethio-Semitic languages, but how certain are you that camels were brought (and by brought, I assume you mean first domesticated and then brought) from Arabia to the Horn? From what I've seen, people aren't entirely sure if camels were domesticated first in southern Arabia or the Horn (that is, when they consider the last one).
    It's interesting. Reading that thread told me that PAA could have been predominantly SSA or ANA or West Eurasian or Basal Eurasian or any combination of those four components.

    I'm more confused now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Kind of offf topic but were camels in Central Asia domesticated independently of Arabia (or the Horn) or is there a relation?
    Bactrian Camels are a different species from Dromedary camels, and the wild Bactrian Camels are also a separate species from both domesticated species. All these three species of Camels belong in the genus, Camelus which also includes other extinct Camel species. The wild ancestors for both dromedary and bactrian camels are extinct not long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    There's a paper on the different sources of Semitic loanwords in Northern Somali (modern standard Somali), the paper suggested that the many words for camels were mostly of ASA origin and are also found in Rendille which is a close linguistic cousin of Somali and are mostly camel herders in Northern Kenya surrounded by cattle hearding nilotic speakers and Borana Oromo cattle herders
    Makes a lot of sense considering that the Old South Arabians like the Sabaeans and etc have had very close cultural and trade links with the horn of Africa since ancient times.

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    It seems very unlikely that South Semetic originated anywhere else but South Arabia. Evidence is lacking. Although one thing that has been overruled is the Sabaean migration theory because of the evidence of spoken Semetic language in Ethiopia as far back as 2000 BC before their arrival in the Area. Likewise Geez is no longer classified as an Old South Arabian language is now thought of as being evolved from Proto-Ethio-Semetic language . This means that Ethio-Semetic diverged from South Arabian before 2000 BCE. It first evolved in the African side of the red sea left and then reverse migrated back.

    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Semitic languages came directly from Yemen to the Northern Highlands and there was probably another migration to the lowlands of the Horn aswell (Afar and Northern Somalia) that brought camels,lineages like T1a & J1 and very old Semitic loanwords
    I don't think T1 in Somalia is brought by Yemeni migrations to Somalia. Those lineages probably arrived through North africa via the red sea if anything else and their concentration/frequency in the north is probably due to founder effect. Haplogroup Ts origins is in the fertile crescent.

    J1 is to uncommon to make real mentions of probably a minor neolithic lineage.


    Origins & History

    The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
    Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

    Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml
    Last edited by Mirix; 10-05-2020 at 03:45 PM.

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    Isn't it obvious that Ethio-Semitic speakers owe a small (but significant) amount of their ancestry to a South Arabian population during the Late Bronze/Early Iron age (and subsequently to Neolithic Levantines and Arabian nomads), and not to hinder preceding influence from Levantine populations during the Neolithic. It's also evident in some of their Y-haplogroup lineages as others have pointed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    It seems very unlikely that South Semetic originated anywhere else but South Arabia. Evidence is lacking. Although one thing that has been overruled is the Sabaean migration theory because of the evidence of spoken Semetic language in Ethiopia as far back as 2000 BC before their arrival in the Area. Likewise Geez is no longer classified as an Old South Arabian language is now thought of as being evolved from Proto-Ethio-Semetic language . This means that Ethio-Semetic diverged from South Arabian before 2000 BCE. It first evolved in the African side of the red sea left and then reverse migrated back.



    I don't think T1 in Somalia is brought by Yemeni migrations to Somalia. Those lineages probably arrived through North africa via the red sea if anything else and their concentration/frequency in the north is probably due to founder effect. Haplogroup Ts origins is in the fertile crescent.

    J1 is to uncommon to make real mentions of probably a minor neolithic lineage.


    Origins & History

    The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
    Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

    Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml
    The T in Dir clan isn't old and doesn't seem cushitic related.As of now it seems to be a bronze age Semitic lineage that arrived in modern Somaliland

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    It seems very unlikely that South Semetic originated anywhere else but South Arabia. Evidence is lacking. Although one thing that has been overruled is the Sabaean migration theory because of the evidence of spoken Semetic language in Ethiopia as far back as 2000 BC before their arrival in the Area. Likewise Geez is no longer classified as an Old South Arabian language is now thought of as being evolved from Proto-Ethio-Semetic language . This means that Ethio-Semetic diverged from South Arabian before 2000 BCE. It first evolved in the African side of the red sea left and then reverse migrated back.



    I don't think T1 in Somalia is brought by Yemeni migrations to Somalia. Those lineages probably arrived through North africa via the red sea if anything else and their concentration/frequency in the north is probably due to founder effect. Haplogroup Ts origins is in the fertile crescent.

    J1 is to uncommon to make real mentions of probably a minor neolithic lineage.


    Origins & History

    The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
    Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

    Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml
    The T in yemen and somalia came via the levant which received T along with R1b-V88 circa 9000 bc .............this group came from Asia Minor together...............the T in question is the more populous T1a1 branch ...................

    there is a paper on this by a woman.....I cannot recall....but below is a very very small extraction

    Last edited by vettor; 10-05-2020 at 04:51 PM.


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    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
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    The T in Somaliland is from Yemen.The upstream subclades is in Asir (SW Saudi Arabia) & Hijaz (Western Saudi).Somali T isn't related to the NE African T-subclades and the T1a found in other Horners.

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