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Thread: Crimean paper (Greeks, Karaites, Tatars)

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    Crimean paper (Greeks, Karaites, Tatars)

    The paper: http://vigg.ru/fileadmin/user_upload...Krym-2018_.pdf

    This paper has autosomal and some uniparental info. It's in Russian and Russian speakers here are welcome in finding relevant information. Needless to say, Crimean Karaites are why I'm excited about this paper. Of all the Crimean populations studied, the samples total 476.

    Key takeaways:

    Y Graph:

    Y Graph - Copy.JPG

    Upper row from left to right: Karaites, Rumeika, Urum
    Bottom row from left to right: Steppe Crimean Tatars, Mountain Crimean Tatars, Southshore Crimean Tatars

    Now, Kevin Brook(whom the authors criticize) conducted a Y study on Crimean Tatars and found no C3 over something like 20-30 samples. This study used 61 Crimean Karaite samples, and we already see a noticeable wedge of C3. Needless to say, I'm skeptical. The criteria for a full Karaite seems to have been - 4 Karaite granaparents. This study obtained Crimean Karaite samples with the cooperation of their community center. What's relevant to know here is that Crimean Karaites are in denial about their Jewish ancestry and status. They have a facebook page, and in order to join, you have to say where you think Crimean Karaites originate from. I didn't reply with anything Turkic. You can take a guess whether I was allowed to join. They also used 7 Crimean Karaite autosomal samples. Here is a plot with them on it:

    karaite plot - Copy.JPG

    The red dot with the arrow pointing to it are Crimean Karaites and the yellow dots are different Jewish groups. They're close to one yellow dot - a single Jewish group. Which group?



    COVID has made life really boring, so I don't mind starting a shitstorm for my own entertainment. The blurry yellow dot near them are Ashkenazim, specifically - Polish Ashkenazim. Let it begin. Now, this is good and all, and there are many other plots in there, which others will post. What's very revealing is that the paper keeps stressing the unrelatedness of Crimean Karaites to other Jews, while not commenting on this very plot. For F_st distances, the closest to them is a tie between Turks and Lebanese Muslims. The authors don't take note of the Levantine connection. In some other distance metric, the closest are south Iranians. Of course, this one isn't ignored. Finally, the paper provides an autosomal breakdown of every Crimean group(pg79), but one. Karaites are excluded. I wonder why. Elsewhere, the paper notes some proximity to Turkish Jews, but doesn't note it when Sephardic Jews have a similar placing in an another metric. Of course, an anthropological paper on this subject cited this paper and concluded that the connection must be one of common gentile admixture, as opposed to a common Israelite origin.

    Some other notable takeaways is that one of the Crimean Tatar groups seems to be essentially Greek in origin and they provide MTDNA data for non-Karaite groups. I omitted some stuff, so others are encouraged to read through it and post. If anyone manages to find any raw or supplemental data, please make it known.
    Last edited by StillWater; 10-04-2020 at 06:39 AM.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Well its well known among Crimean tatars, that coastal Crimean tatars are basically “tatarized” outsiders (mainly greeks) and not genuine tatars. They tend to look very western asian also.

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    Very interesting, thanks! We've been missing Crimean Pontic Greek references, hopefully these will find their way to G25 and fill in some gaps we have.
    55.8% Greek Central Macedonia + 44.2% Greek Trabzon @ 1.46

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Very interesting, thanks! We've been missing Crimean Pontic Greek references, hopefully these will find their way to G25 and fill in some gaps we have.
    I highly doubt we'll get their raw data, but I hope others help in that.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    I've cut out some ethnic groups from the autosomal breakdown and highlighted Crimean Greeks. You'll see my recollection is wrong. They're not just similar to one Crimean Tatar group, but to 2 of 3.

    autosomal crimea - Copy.JPG

    To the left of them are Greeks, Cypriots and Turks. At the far right, you see the contrast with Turkic nations.

    Here is the MTDNA breakdown of Crimean groups (Karaites weren't included):

    mtdna - Copy.JPG

    Top, left to right: Crimean Greeks, Southshore Crimean Tatars
    Bottom, left to right: Mountain Crimean Tatars, Steppe Crimean Tatars

    One autosomal distance chart puts the Rumeikas closest to Cretans(0.09 distance) and then closest to Armenians(0.18 distance).
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    Why is this paper in the Ancient DNA section?

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    Thanks for sharing this StillWater.

    In terms of presence or lack of Y-DNA Haplogroup C3, if Brook's sample size was 23 it is entirely possible (albeit unlikely) that it wouldn't show up in the sample. By the graph, it seems like it's only 4-5%. That's the equivalent of missing a lineage like J-L210 among 23 Ashkenazim; possible but unlikely. Still, as no other nearby group is necessarily rich in C3 (Steppe Crimean Tatars being the only ones with more than Crimean Karaites, but only like 5-6%), I do doubt its presence.

    I'm impressed with their rates for other haplogroups, specifically J1, J2, and G2a. The former two are not surprising, but G2a seems to approach 25% which of course is quite rare for G in most populations. Do you have the link to Brook's analysis so we can see how much G2a he found? Disappointed that E1b is so low relative to J1 and J2, but it could be low due to sampling even.

    In terms of the plotting close to Polish Ashkenazim, that is indeed exciting if they did not alter the graph in any way, and a clear indication that Crimean Karaites influenced Eastern Ashkenazim as well as their medieval predecessors in the east. However, as it is clear throughout the paper that they are framing the evidence towards a non-Jewish origin, do you not think that Polish Ashkenazim plotting between Crimean Karaites and other Jewish groups could just be because they believe Ashkenazim to be Khazar-derived, thus also at least part Turkic? But I suppose actually moving a plot on a graph is going way beyond just reframing the evidence, so I'm not sure.

    Do you know the coverage of their Y testing? If they only stayed at the haplogroup level, they wouldn't have needed to get that deep, but I hope I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Thanks for sharing this StillWater.

    In terms of presence or lack of Y-DNA Haplogroup C3, if Brook's sample size was 23 it is entirely possible (albeit unlikely) that it wouldn't show up in the sample. By the graph, it seems like it's only 4-5%. That's the equivalent of missing a lineage like J-L210 among 23 Ashkenazim; possible but unlikely. Still, as no other nearby group is necessarily rich in C3 (Steppe Crimean Tatars being the only ones with more than Crimean Karaites, but only like 5-6%), I do doubt its presence.

    I'm impressed with their rates for other haplogroups, specifically J1, J2, and G2a. The former two are not surprising, but G2a seems to approach 25% which of course is quite rare for G in most populations. Do you have the link to Brook's analysis so we can see how much G2a he found? Disappointed that E1b is so low relative to J1 and J2, but it could be low due to sampling even.

    In terms of the plotting close to Polish Ashkenazim, that is indeed exciting if they did not alter the graph in any way, and a clear indication that Crimean Karaites influenced Eastern Ashkenazim as well as their medieval predecessors in the east. However, as it is clear throughout the paper that they are framing the evidence towards a non-Jewish origin, do you not think that Polish Ashkenazim plotting between Crimean Karaites and other Jewish groups could just be because they believe Ashkenazim to be Khazar-derived, thus also at least part Turkic? But I suppose actually moving a plot on a graph is going way beyond just reframing the evidence, so I'm not sure.

    Do you know the coverage of their Y testing? If they only stayed at the haplogroup level, they wouldn't have needed to get that deep, but I hope I'm wrong.
    I'll look at it again, but I recall all haplo depth associated with non-Karaites. I know, a shocker.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    Does anyone know why whereas the number of Crimean Tatars dropped from 245k to 232k, Tatars increased 3 fold from 13k to 45k since 2001? Did Russians invite Tatars from Volga over?
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