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Thread: What is the Scottish component composed of?

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reggiemercer View Post
    Thats actually a great question. It seems like my family started in Montreal in the 1670s and stayed there until my grandfather's generation, when they wound up in Ottawa for some reason. Thats also when they stopped speaking French and wholly adopted English. I see nothing but French names except for one Martin in my father's paternal genealogy and even more oddly, my father actually looks 100% ethnically French. But the "Scottish", whatever that is measuring, had to come in some significant degree from him, because my paternal half-sister whose mother is 100% French got this admixture:

    Attachment 40828

    Her results are actually what I expected mine to look like. This is odd because my father's family was Catholic, whereas the Scottish were very stubbornly Presbyterian and entire extended families would get broken up over mixed marriages. I thought maybe Breton ancestry could bring that percentage up, but when I look at my cousins the Scottish drops off rapidly from my 2nd cousins onward and French picks back up:

    Attachment 40829

    The only possibility I can think of is my grandma was maybe connected to the Anglo-Metis, but I get no Amerindian on Ancestry so that seems unlikely.

    By the way, did you get any Irish in your Ancestry report? It seems that Scots-Irish either get all Scotland or some blend of Scotland and Ireland.
    My American cousins are mostly Ulster Scots. Here are some of their results. Bearing in mind results will get less pure with time.





    They get the SW Scotland and Northern Ireland Genetic Community but not the Scottish Lowlands community which I have. It mustíve been lost in their generations.

    Regarding pure Ulster Scots, generally I have found most are 70% Scottish, 30% Irish. Some are higher, usually in isolated rural, Protestant areas.

    Generally the stats vary by the demographics of the area that their ancestors resided.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 10-31-2020 at 06:22 AM.

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  3. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    My American cousins are mostly Ulster Scots. Here are some of their results. Bearing in mind results will get less pure with time.

    They get the SW Scotland and Northern Ireland Genetic Community but not the Scottish Lowlands community which I have. It must’ve been lost in their generations.

    Regarding pure Ulster Scots, generally I have found most are 70% Scottish, 30% Irish. Some are higher, usually in isolated rural, Protestant areas.

    Generally the stats vary by the demographics of the area that their ancestors resided.
    Here's my father in law's estimate, all his ancestors are Northern Irish. His result is on the right, although it goes without needing mention
    wife+dadanc2020.png

    @Reggie

    RE: The French component, my wife is 25% French (1 grandparent) and Ancestry gave her 18%.

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  5. #223
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    I have several 100% Scotland results but they are not Northern Irish.

    The highest I have seen from here was 88%.

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  7. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    I have several 100% Scotland results but they are not Northern Irish.

    The highest I have seen from here was 88%.
    Ah, he's been beaten. Some of his ancestors were native Ulster Irish, so I guess that held him back from winning first place.

  8. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reggiemercer View Post
    Why are you people more French than I am. LMAO

    Aha, I may have found a hint: Attachment 40832

    My "French Settler" ancestry is in the southwest as opposed to southeast. My family has always been pretty close to the border and there was a lot of cross-pollination that went on over the years. I also double-checked my grandmother's maiden name, its a French name but her mother's surnames are paternally Holland and maternally Walsh. If Holland was English (or maybe Scottish) and Walsh was Welsh or Irish, that might explain how some extra Scottish and English got into my father's DNA. It'll all become clear when I find a good enough excuse to buy my mom an Ancestry kit.

    By the way, looking at your father's and aunts' results, he's definitely got a significant amount of Borders ancestry but that would show up in English first, Irish and then Scottish. The Central Lowlands is similar to my ancestry on my mother's side and that probably means he's Celtic. I don't know if that means he's allowed to wear a kilt without ridicule, but he can watch Braveheart with pride because Wallace was a southwesterner. Does your father's family have any roots in or near Ontario, more specifically in the Ottawa valley or in the southeast around Perth?
    Walsh is an Irish name well Cambro-Irish to be exact but only found in Ireland. Holland could be Irish or English as it is found in both countries.

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  10. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Walsh is an Irish name well Cambro-Irish to be exact but only found in Ireland. Holland could be Irish or English as it is found in both countries.
    Walsh was an exceedingly common surname in the UK. I've typically encountered everywhere I've moved to in the UK with the exception of Scotland. However, I cannot speak to the ancestral origins of said individuals. According to UK surname density, it is primarily found in Lancashire, but as that faces the Irish Sea....

  11. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    From a Welsh context, and following on from jadegreg's post #180 suggesting "hidden" Irish ancestry in Wales.

    There were significant Irish communities in places like Merthyr Tydfil and other parts of the south east valleys from the mid 1800s.
    From a teachers resource for Key Stage 4 History in Wales:

    "As industry developed in the 19th century the level of immigration into Wales increased. The Irish famine of the 1840s led to the first great wave of immigrants into Wales. There had been a trickle of Irish immigrants before but the famine forced people out of Ireland. By 1861 there were almost 30,000 Irish living in Wales, making them Walesí largest immigrant group by far. They settled primarily in the four largest South Wales towns - Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Merthyr. They were hard working and found jobs in construction e.g. building Cardiff docks, the expanding railway network, as well as in coalmines and steel works. By 1881, one-third of Cardiffís residents were Irish."
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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  13. #228
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    5,000 Ulster Scots moved to America per year, in the 1780ís.

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  15. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Interesting observation and the SW communities vs the SE. That may indeed be why. Get your mom that DNA kit for Christmas, it's got to be going on sale soon?

    No, my father's Scottish ancestry isn't Canadian, his grandfather was born in Scotland. He has no borders ancestry, but my mother does. He's only got a tiny bit of ancestry from Ayrshire - and that's without proper documentation (I only have one document indicating it - not enough to be 100%.) His grandfather's ancestors were from Perthshire and Stirlingshire, which are both areas that received a lot of immigration in the middle ages. Aside from the Ayrshire "hint" there are no other places my great-grandfather's people lived in Scotland before 1700. I'm sure if we went back far enough in time, his Scottish ancestors would be Picts, Angles, Danes, Flemish, French, and English. The most well-documented of these ancestors originate in lowland Perthshire, with one line from Killin, and we get a few cool Gaelic names on that one like MacLaren and Ferguson, but these aren't the majority (but they are my favorites...)

    The comparison shows us a couple things:
    1. The Scottish estimate is horribly overestimated for all 5 results.
    2. My dad gets 24 Ireland plus 23 Scotland, but his sisters get 54 and 55 Scotland. Ireland is interchangeable with Scotland to some degree.
    3. Scotland is also representing English ancestry, because it's impossible that it wouldn't be. Two of my dad's grandparents were born in Britain, one in Central England with no movement outside of the counties of Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, and Staffordshire prior to the 1600s... but being in those areas for so long, one can imagine that these ancestors might have lived in that area for a thousand years. Definitely English, no appropriate English percentages.
    Playing around with mine vs. my sisters:

    Scotland: 33%
    Wales: 23%
    Ireland: 2%
    England: 12%
    Germanic Europe: 18%
    Sweden: 13%

    Sis:

    Scotland: 17%
    Wales: 5%
    Ireland: 10%
    England: 49%
    Germanic Europe (2%) + France (3%)=5%
    Sweden (2%) + Norway (12%)=14%

    My Sweden number is about right (we have a Swedish g-grandmother), we have no known Norwegian, and my Germanic Europe number is about correct for our likely German/Swiss/Dutch/French (mostly German/Swiss). So I am assuming some of my sister's German, etc. is tagged as English. Adjusting for that:

    England: 49% - 12%=37%
    Germanic Europe (2%) + France (3%)=5%+12%=17%
    Sweden (2%) + Norway (12%)=14%

    With that adjustment, the numbers (me vs. sister) are:

    Scotland: 33% vs. 17%
    Ireland: 2% v. 10%

    Totaling that: 35% v. 27% -- not so different, but way too high, as we are 1/8 or less Scots-Irish.

    Then Wales: 23% vs. 5% -- hers is about half what it should be, mine about double.

    So, yeah, in my case both Wales and Scotland are representing English ancestry to some degree. In my sister's case, some of her Welsh is likely in her English, along with her German/Swiss. None of this seems surprising, but I think it does show that there are limits on what one can conclude from the different percentages of these quite close ancestries (with migrations from one area to another for ages). For someone 100% Welsh or Irish, I'm not surprised they might end up getting 100% or close to it, but for more mixed people not so much. (And I do think Scotland is being overrepresented in many, many cases.)

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  17. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    Playing around with mine vs. my sisters:

    Scotland: 33%
    Wales: 23%
    Ireland: 2%
    England: 12%
    Germanic Europe: 18%
    Sweden: 13%

    Sis:

    Scotland: 17%
    Wales: 5%
    Ireland: 10%
    England: 49%
    Germanic Europe (2%) + France (3%)=5%
    Sweden (2%) + Norway (12%)=14%

    My Sweden number is about right (we have a Swedish g-grandmother), we have no known Norwegian, and my Germanic Europe number is about correct for our likely German/Swiss/Dutch/French (mostly German/Swiss). So I am assuming some of my sister's German, etc. is tagged as English. Adjusting for that:

    England: 49% - 12%=37%
    Germanic Europe (2%) + France (3%)=5%+12%=17%
    Sweden (2%) + Norway (12%)=14%

    With that adjustment, the numbers (me vs. sister) are:

    Scotland: 33% vs. 17%
    Ireland: 2% v. 10%

    Totaling that: 35% v. 27% -- not so different, but way too high, as we are 1/8 or less Scots-Irish.

    Then Wales: 23% vs. 5% -- hers is about half what it should be, mine about double.

    So, yeah, in my case both Wales and Scotland are representing English ancestry to some degree. In my sister's case, some of her Welsh is likely in her English, along with her German/Swiss. None of this seems surprising, but I think it does show that there are limits on what one can conclude from the different percentages of these quite close ancestries (with migrations from one area to another for ages). For someone 100% Welsh or Irish, I'm not surprised they might end up getting 100% or close to it, but for more mixed people not so much. (And I do think Scotland is being overrepresented in many, many cases.)
    Someone new to this could get their results and identify with their regions, then next year go through a complete change of identity when the next update rolls out.

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