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Thread: Why is E-V13 so confusing?

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    Why is E-V13 so confusing?

    Hello, I have done a bit of research on Y-DNA and I think I have a good grasp on the main concepts and ideas. But I have many questions about haplogroup E-V13.

    Firstly: What is the actual modern frequency map of E-V13?
    HgE1b1b1a2.png
    Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

    These are the two maps I see used the most. The first one from Wikipedia the second one from Eupedia. I saw that the one from Wikipedia is from a legitimate but old scientific study, while the one from Eupedia is more recent but I couldn't find how they got it. I feel like the Eupedian map is more accurate because it has British and Spanish regions. Is there no new and accurate map for E-V13? I don't know exactly how these maps are created though (I assume they use samples from populations).

    My second question: Why is the Middle Eastern component of E-V13 ignored a lot in discussion and what can it tell us?

    It seems that at around E-BY5786 the E-V13 samples become exclusively Arabian. This includes all the Druze E-V13 samples I was able to find on the FTDNA Druze Project. This haplogroup has a TMRCA of 3200 - 1750. In addition to this the FTDNA has a lot of Arabian samples that occur all around the European parts of E-V13.
    I have heard people say that the Arabian E-V13 could be from Byzantine or Roman soldiers, how plausible is this?

    Related to that is, how come E-V13 is mostly in Europe while all of it's sibling clades are mostly in the MENA region? E-V65, E-V22, and E-V12 all seem to be in the MENA region while E-V13 is in Europe. I don't know if it's just me but I feel like that is unusual.

    My third question: Why is E-V13 not common in Afroasiatic speakers like the rest of E-M35?

    I feel like E-V13 is an anomaly in some ways in Y-DNA, though I guess all haplogroups probably have their own quirks and mysteries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahmes View Post
    Firstly: What is the actual modern frequency map of E-V13?
    Eupedia map is more accurate here, for example as you already mentioned E-V13 is present in the isles and it accounts for 1-3% of men living in England, Wales and Ireland so the creator got it right here. Same for the near absence within the Basque regions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahmes View Post
    My second question: Why is the Middle Eastern component of E-V13 ignored a lot in discussion and what can it tell us?
    Because the diversity in Europe points to an origin from Europe. "Middle Easterners" who belong to E-V13 usually belong to young subclades, which usually go back to the Greco-Roman period in antiquity. A very small portion of E-V13 might be from the crusades especially in Lebanese and Palestinians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahmes View Post
    Related to that is, how come E-V13 is mostly in Europe while all of it's sibling clades are mostly in the MENA region? E-V65, E-V22, and E-V12 all seem to be in the MENA region while E-V13 is in Europe. I don't know if it's just me but I feel like that is unusual.

    My third question: Why is E-V13 not common in Afroasiatic speakers like the rest of E-M35?
    The mystery everyone is discussing.
    What we know so far is E-V13's entry to Europe seems to be Neolithic, as it was found in Spain and other places in the Neolithic. But the dispersal happened sometime in the Bronze age (5500 to 4000 years before present) from the Balkans or central Europe. But we really need more ancient DNA before being too certain about anything.
    Last edited by Shanck; 10-08-2020 at 03:43 PM.

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    This haplogroup has me puzzled, too. My great-grandfather, whose direct male ancestors lived in the woods a few miles north of Dresden in Saxony, carried the E-V13 haplogroup. How did this lineage end up in that part of Eastern Germany?

    I sometimes wonder if the maps of the current distribution of a haplogroup actually do not reflect the true ancient distribution of a haplogroup. Could the current evidence simply reflect that the males of a particular lineage were just spectacularly successful in producing progeny in a certain area over the last millenium but the true history of the lineage lies elsewhere?

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    Eupedia is more correct, based on more recent results, whereas the older map is by far too schematic. I had a recent debate starting with Pannonian ancient DNA and what it means for E-V13, there we discussed possible scenarios.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahmes View Post
    My second question: Why is the Middle Eastern component of E-V13 ignored a lot in discussion and what can it tell us?

    It seems that at around E-BY5786 the E-V13 samples become exclusively Arabian. This includes all the Druze E-V13 samples I was able to find on the FTDNA Druze Project. This haplogroup has a TMRCA of 3200 - 1750. In addition to this the FTDNA has a lot of Arabian samples that occur all around the European parts of E-V13.
    I have heard people say that the Arabian E-V13 could be from Byzantine or Roman soldiers, how plausible is this?
    Just look at the TMRCA and the closest clades within V13:
    https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/

    Its very clear this is a historical spread, most likely due to an individual or group of Greeks or Romans. The timing is perfect and at the root sits a North Italian. There were Roman soldiers and traders, many going beyond the borders of the Empire, some actually even fleeing from it.

    Related to that is, how come E-V13 is mostly in Europe while all of it's sibling clades are mostly in the MENA region? E-V65, E-V22, and E-V12 all seem to be in the MENA region while E-V13 is in Europe. I don't know if it's just me but I feel like that is unusual.
    That's easiest to explain, because not just E-V13 or its direct ancestor came to Europe, but a whole group of E's. You can see that with subclades and branches from the other E's having lived in Europe too. E-V13 was probably born in Europe and it spread the most successfully in and from Europe. Imagine this like a group of brothers emigrating to a new country, some die, some survive, but don't do well, but one of them becomes a billionaire. Same with V13, it survived the changes and expanded big time in the Bronze Age, whereas other clades either survived or died off.

    My third question: Why is E-V13 not common in Afroasiatic speakers like the rest of E-M35?
    Because the ANCESTOR of V13 moved to Anatolia or Europe, it didn't exist anywhere else but in Europe/Anatolia. M35 is very old diversified, which means its splits predate many major linguistic formations. Like when V13 was split from the Near Eastern clades, there was not even Indo-European around. It didn't exist, only some kind of precursor.

    I feel like E-V13 is an anomaly in some ways in Y-DNA, though I guess all haplogroups probably have their own quirks and mysteries.
    There are many such cases like E-V13, like in Europe I1 in particular, which, at one point in time, might have almost died out, but then used a chance to become very successful. Same here, V13 just used the Late Bronze Age to Iron Age transitions to spread beyond its small core zone, in which it might have barely survived before. But this is true for many lineages, some were successful and now they are dead, others almost died out and now they count hundreds of millions of carriers. That's population dynamics and biological as well as cultural selection at work. Those which don't adapt in time get replaced and those which can might expand big time, like R1a in India for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grossvater View Post
    This haplogroup has me puzzled, too. My great-grandfather, whose direct male ancestors lived in the woods a few miles north of Dresden in Saxony, carried the E-V13 haplogroup. How did this lineage end up in that part of Eastern Germany?

    I sometimes wonder if the maps of the current distribution of a haplogroup actually do not reflect the true ancient distribution of a haplogroup. Could the current evidence simply reflect that the males of a particular lineage were just spectacularly successful in producing progeny in a certain area over the last millenium but the true history of the lineage lies elsewhere?
    Why? The region had three ancestral groups in particular:
    - Incoming Western Germans (especially South West has significant E-V13)
    - Migration period Germanics and Slavs (both had E-V13)
    - Vlachs from the mountains (have E-V13).

    So all major contributors to the local ancestry had V13.

    Question is rather which subclade.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-08-2020 at 04:00 PM.

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    I think the origin was somewhere in Switzerland/Austria/Hungary triangle during Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age where it was sheltering in the Alps, previously coming from Western Mediterranean during Late Neolithic, because i believe E-V13 mutation happened more in the West while the E-L618 Balkan lineages didn't mutate to E-V13 and died out during Yamnaya invasion.

    During Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age it massively expanded to Balkans and Carpathians.

    Could be wrong though. It might also be that it was originally a South Balkans lineage exiled by R1b Z2103 Yamnayas. Everything could be possible when we know that single man living in Early Bronze Age is the forefather.
    Last edited by Hawk; 10-09-2020 at 01:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grossvater View Post
    This haplogroup has me puzzled, too. My great-grandfather, whose direct male ancestors lived in the woods a few miles north of Dresden in Saxony, carried the E-V13 haplogroup. How did this lineage end up in that part of Eastern Germany?

    I sometimes wonder if the maps of the current distribution of a haplogroup actually do not reflect the true ancient distribution of a haplogroup. Could the current evidence simply reflect that the males of a particular lineage were just spectacularly successful in producing progeny in a certain area over the last millenium but the true history of the lineage lies elsewhere?
    Here is written about cohors II Thracum relocated from Germany to Britain.

    Thracian soldiers in Roman Britain. Epigraphic evidence for the presence of individual Thracian soldiers, as well as for Thracian military units of the Roman army, is found in several locations in Britain.... The cohors I Thracum eq. (mounted cohort of Thracian cavalry), is recorded on a tombstone in Cologne from the first century; this unit had moved to Britain by 122 and was still there under Severus (r. 193-211). The cohors II Thracum moved from Germany to Britain between the mid-first century and CE 103, perhaps as a result of the Bouddican revolt. Only one seventh cohort is known, the cohors VII Thracum. It was attested in Britain in 122 and 135 and in Brittania Inferior (corresponding to northern England, with its capital at York) in the third century. Among the alae (“wings” of cavalry), the ala I Thracum was attested in Britain in 103 and 124; tombstones from Colchester (about CE 45) and Cirencester (CE 62) attest to the unit’s presence in Britain in the mid-first century and an engraved trulla (washbasin or ladle), possibly Flavian….”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think the origin was somewhere in Switzerland/Austria/Hungary
    triangle during Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age where it was sheltering in the Alps, previously coming from Western Mediterranean during Late Neolithic, because i believe E-V13 mutation happened more in the West while the E-L618 Balkan lineages didn't mutate to E-V13 and died out during Yamnaya invasion.

    During Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age it massively expanded to Balkans and Carpathians.

    Could be wrong though. It might also be that it was originally a South Balkans lineage exiled by R1b Z2103 Yamnayas. Everything could be possible when we know that single man living in Early Bronze Age is the forefather.
    I rather think that E-V13 was picked or just left alone as a folk of miners and metal workers in the Northern Carpathian region. Later it used the LBA changes first to expand and was ultimately even pushed South. That's why originally you don't find it in Pannonia or Thrace, but in the Iron Age its there. These are Illyro-Thracian people moving South at the LBA-EIA transition and V13 seems to have been, somehow, someway, been a big part of this people and their movements. With the iron metal work, again as specialists, they spread to the Celts too and some made it to Slavs and Iranians in a similar way.
    But probably I'm wrong, we just need to test Teleac-Gava remains to find out:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post707022

    Either they have it or not. But if not, I would be confused, because imho the Bosut-Basarabi complex must have had it already, because from there you have a direct tradition to the local Thracian and Illyrian tribes, which are supposed to have it.

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    Its very clear this is a historical spread, most likely due to an individual or group of Greeks or Romans. The timing is perfect and at the root sits a North Italian. There were Roman soldiers and traders, many going beyond the borders of the Empire, some actually even fleeing from it.

    The timings add up to this, but are there actual examples of this happening? How would they assimilate so effortlessly with arabs in 500 years time? Why would they even go to Arabia?

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    Most of E-V13 in the Balkans and in the Middle East is subsequently as a result of the Sea People invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Most of E-V13 in the Balkans and in the Middle East is subsequently as a result of the Sea People invasion.
    What Sea peoples? I thought these Sea people are the unicorns of genetics, never being proven?
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminà (RC) Italy

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