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Thread: Balkan Iron Gate Hunter-Gatherers (Hint to Possible E-L618 "E-V13" Entry to Europe?)

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    Balkan Iron Gate Hunter-Gatherers (Hint to Possible E-L618 "E-V13" Entry to Europe?)

    The band of Hunter-gatherers that inhabited the modern Geographic area stretching from Serbia to Romania in Mesolithic (as early as 9500 BCE) were Called the "Iron Gates HG", guys.

    They were first tested and reported by (Mathieson et al.2018) as a Mixture of of both WHG and EHG related ancestries. However they showed an extra Component not present in the formers with affinities towards Neolithic Anatolians. As a matter of fact individuals with an entire northwestern-Anatolian-Neolithic-related ancestry were discovered in their area around (6200–5600 BC) as an Outliers. But the Study had presented an alternative possible theory on the arrival of this Ancestry among the Early tested specimen as follows :

    We modelled Iron Gates hunter-gatherers as a mixture of WHG- and EHG-related ancestry (Supplementary Table 3), which showed that they are intermediate between the two (WHG contributing approximately 85%, and EHG approximately 15%, of ancestry). However, this qpAdm model does not fit well (P = 0.0003, Supplementary Table 3) and the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers show an affinity towards northwestern-Anatolian-Neolithic-, relative to WHG-, ancestry populations (Supplementary Table 2).... Possible scenarios include genetic contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and a northwestern-Anatolian-Neolithic-related population, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the WHG split during a re-expansion into Europe from the southeast after the Last Glacial Maximum17,37
    Another more recent Study Concerned about this Matter after testing more new Anatolian Skeletons (feldman et al.2019) had re-modeled the Iron gates hunters as (85%) WHG and (15%) Anatolian Hunters or as another three way model that may also involves Natufians (since the unknown ancestry detected is of the deep kind).

    Accordingly, we find that Iron Gates HG can be modeled as a three-way mixture of Near-Eastern hunter-gatherers (25.8 ± 5.0 % AHG or 11.1 ± 2.2 % Natufian), WHG (62.9 ± 7.4% or 78.0 ± 4.6%, respectively) and EHG (11.3 ± 3.3% or 10.9 ± 3%, respectively); (χ2p = 0.308 and χ2p = 0.589 respectively; Supplementary Tables 4 and 9).
    It's worth to note that one of the Iron gates samples (I5244) was carrying MT-DNA (K1f) which is related in Europe to an expansion from Anatolia. And this Sample was roughly 9000 BC in age. And Since we also have E-M35 positive result in Neolithic Anatolia and assuming an Earlier existence of it in the from of the E-M78 type. I can't dismiss the idea of a Possible entry of E-L618's ancestor at such event into Europe where eventually E-L618 originated (around 9,700 BC) and it later witnessed a two major bottleneck events one around 5,800 BC (the peak of Anatolian farmers migration?) and other between 2,800 - 2,200 BC (when the migrations from the steppe reached Europe?), of course these ages were illustrated from yfull's E-L618 TMRCA estimations). And some details may vary. However such evidences with the Scarcity of a more necessary Ancient DNA samples is still missing pieces up, a rather alternative late expansion with Anatolian agriculturists can still be possible and a suitable likely path too IMO.

    Last edited by The Saite; 10-09-2020 at 12:28 AM.

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    I like your approach and see no reason why not, yet its just a scenario as good as 10 others I could think of - but certainly one of the more likely ones imho.

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    It’s an interesting theory but physical proof is needed. The E-M35 in Turkey is most likely E-Z827 in my opinion. We need proof of E-M78 in Anatolia and levant. I’m waiting for at least 1 quality sample of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I like your approach and see no reason why not, yet its just a scenario as good as 10 others I could think of - but certainly one of the more likely ones imho.
    Thanks for the reply your addition is precious, please tell me about the other as good as it 10 scenarios that you can think of
    Last edited by The Saite; 10-08-2020 at 11:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythoslav View Post
    It’s an interesting theory but physical proof is needed. The E-M35 in Turkey is most likely E-Z827 in my opinion. We need proof of E-M78 in Anatolia and levant. I’m waiting for at least 1 quality sample of it.
    I see, if you downloaded the mentioned (Mathieson et al.2018) paper's Supplementary Data. You will find it confirming a 9,7 K years old sample from PPNB Levant tested first in Lazardis 2016 as E1b1b1a-V68 Positive. on the occasion of it, MT-DNA Haplogroup K that is carried by the also mentioned Iron gates hunter's sample in the thread, was a major MT-DNA Lineage occurring in the Syrian PPNB period itslef as old as 8 K BCE too. As For the Anatolian Neolithic M35. If we Judged it from how E-L618 was frequent throughout Neolithic Europe instead of E-Z827. The chances is actually in E-M78's favor.


    Last edited by The Saite; 10-08-2020 at 11:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    Thanks for the reply your addition is precious, and I'm curious what's the other 10 scenarios as good as it that you can think of
    My number one is still that derivatives of E1b entered first the Northern Levante with Natufian and were swept, as a minority element, like H, with the majority of G2 Neolithics into Europe.
    This could have happened either equally and randomly distributed, or with a specific wave of immigrants, which can already alter the scenario significantly into more than one. The advantage of this approach is that we have proof of E1b-lineages in the Levante (Natufian and succeeding cultures), as well as in various European Neolithic cultures (Impresso-Cardial, LBK-Lengyel, Michelsberger), but so far nothing from the time before.

    Another scenario is the direct migration from North Africa into Europe, which I don't favour at all, but which still remains a possibility - depending on the exact time frame and culture, you get already more than one scenario out of that option too.

    There is also the possibility that haplogroup E was present in the Mesolithic times of Europe, either by entering from the Levante-Anatolia or North Africa, but then again, when and how is pretty much everyones best guess and while this is pretty similar to your scenario, which is preferable, there could be other thinkable options too.

    Anyway, I would suggest that your scenario is No. 2 after the Neolithic influx with G2 and H from Anatolia at a somewhat later time. Basically Levante-Anatolia is my best scenario, either Mesolithic (like you described) or Neolithic together with G2 and H in particular, especially with the Impresso-Cardial expansion around the Mediterranean, but a minority also taking a land route, ending up in the Northern Balkan-Carpathians where they survive the steppe expansion, whereas the other lineages become extinct or reduced, and expanding from there in the LBA-EIA transition. The scenario wouldn't be that different from yours, but I have troubles seeing the big impact of E1b-V13 precursors on Impresso-Cardial with an early colony primarily at the Iron Gates-Balkan zone. That's probably the best argument for a Neolithic-Anatolian expansion. But that are just my 2 cents, you are in my top 2-3 scenarios I read about so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    My number one is still that derivatives of E1b entered first the Northern Levante with Natufian and were swept, as a minority element, like H, with the majority of G2 Neolithics into Europe.
    This could have happened either equally and randomly distributed, or with a specific wave of immigrants, which can already alter the scenario significantly into more than one. The advantage of this approach is that we have proof of E1b-lineages in the Levante (Natufian and succeeding cultures), as well as in various European Neolithic cultures (Impresso-Cardial, LBK-Lengyel, Michelsberger), but so far nothing from the time before.

    Another scenario is the direct migration from North Africa into Europe, which I don't favour at all, but which still remains a possibility - depending on the exact time frame and culture, you get already more than one scenario out of that option too.

    There is also the possibility that haplogroup E was present in the Mesolithic times of Europe, either by entering from the Levante-Anatolia or North Africa, but then again, when and how is pretty much everyones best guess and while this is pretty similar to your scenario, which is preferable, there could be other thinkable options too.

    Anyway, I would suggest that your scenario is No. 2 after the Neolithic influx with G2 and H from Anatolia at a somewhat later time. Basically Levante-Anatolia is my best scenario, either Mesolithic (like you described) or Neolithic together with G2 and H in particular, especially with the Impresso-Cardial expansion around the Mediterranean, but a minority also taking a land route, ending up in the Northern Balkan-Carpathians where they survive the steppe expansion, whereas the other lineages become extinct or reduced, and expanding from there in the LBA-EIA transition. The scenario wouldn't be that different from yours, but I have troubles seeing the big impact of E1b-V13 precursors on Impresso-Cardial with an early colony primarily at the Iron Gates-Balkan zone. That's probably the best argument for a Neolithic-Anatolian expansion. But that are just my 2 cents, you are in my top 2-3 scenarios I read about so far.
    Actually, your Number 1 is my Number 1 too. And your number 2 supposedly it's near to the Thread's then it's My number 2 again. And for that I think your number 3 would be my number 3 same. Looks like we share the same priority arrangement ground here
    Last edited by The Saite; 10-08-2020 at 11:54 PM.

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    I saw recently on this vid (11:50) that there are signs of a neolithic skull cult at Gobekli Tepe:



    User Aspurg often mentions an adriatic skull cult that isnt in other regions in balkans. Most likely not related, but interesting to keep in mind.

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    This could be a connection to Natufians, even though skull cults appear in many times and cultures.

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    The Natufians Y-DNA E-M35 subclades which were revealed in Lazaridis paper were Ramonian Levantine HG IMO, while the Mushabian intruders were E-M78. The latter coming from Sebilian/Qadan cultures bringing with themselves the proto-idea of farming.

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