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Thread: Balkan Iron Gate Hunter-Gatherers (Hint to Possible E-L618 "E-V13" Entry to Europe?)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    Ain Ghazal's PPN sample isn't E-V22, it's roughly E-M78*. Although the Existence of both E-V22 & E-V12 in the Levant is likely to be Historic Egyptian more than it being Neolithic or Mesolithic. Their absence in the plenty of bronze to iron age Levant samples tested tells it IMO, And the news about the Iron age E-V22 Beirut Sample from Haber 2020 is inscure. Even tho Egyptian admixture was present noticeably in the city at that time. The Author still didn't confirm it.
    Not to hijack the thread, but E-V22 and E-V12 subclades in the Levant seem to be much older than dynastic period. Maybe for E-V12, but E-V22 is quite Levantine. I don't see why E-V22 in Iron age Lebanon is far-fetched. Besides there's no Egyptian admixture in the populations of the Levant from that period, and the authors aren't entirely sure as to whether the family was an exception or a part of the phenomenon. Could be. We need more ancient DNA.
    Last edited by Shanck; 10-10-2020 at 03:30 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanck View Post
    Not to hijack the thread, but E-V22 and E-V12 subclades in the Levant seem to be much older than dynastic period. Maybe for E-V12, but E-V22 is quite Levantine. I don't see why E-V22 in Iron age Lebanon is far-fetched. Besides there's no Egyptian admixture in the populations of the Levant from that period, and the authors aren't entirely sure as to whether the family was an exception or a part of the phenomenon. Could be. We need more ancient DNA.
    I see your point. But It's far-fitched because E-V22 isn't ordinary for a Levantine. It don't exist in Either bronze or iron age Levant, also no existence recorded in the Neolithic or Cooper age periods out of very many tested ancient Levant samples from important Various sites of such wide region (You Can mail the Author of the E-V22 Beriut individual that some researchers predicted it. He is fast responding and will dis-confrim the sample being E-V22 in first place). Coming back to the researchers predicting the samples (One of them is the E-V22 site owner) they regard it actually as a sign of Egyptian influence after discovery. Haplogroup E-V22 TMRCA is just around 6000BC originating in the East side of North Africa (Eugenia D'Atanasio et al.2018) And the Egyptian branches of it are diverse not on a single lineage below. A quick Comparison between Ancient Levant with ancient Egypt as an example from the 6 known trusted Samples so far. (3 of Abusir and 1 of which is Ramsis and 2 from Pushkin). You notice that Out of these 6 possibly all originating from the North a total of 3 are E-V22 (if you would discard Ramses due to Markers insecurity prediction that would make it 2, which yet still a strong presence of the total). Judging E-V22 as Levantine because it have significant presence in Now days southern Levant isn't accurate and isn't counting the Egyptian migrations to this area in the last 1000 years.
    I know some information about this Subclade because I belong to it myself and I catched up with plenty other Egys who do. And I know information about the Egyptian migrations to the Levant, because I myself have relatives doing it in the only last 300 years. Also it's recorded by Middle ages historians. And others in Muhammed Ali's reign.
    And yes I think we really Hijacked the thread away for enough non-related topics. (Well At least E-V22 is distantly related to E-L618, and more aDNA would surely be useful for this manner)
    Last edited by The Saite; 10-10-2020 at 07:34 PM.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    I actually have the capability to agree with most of the Theories you mentioned even it's kind of Exotic for most parts. But I wanted also to add here that the precursor to V13 (if you meant E-L618) wasn't present in the tested Taforalt individuals. That news was suggested by a researcher that SNP called one of them, However the same sample was negative to E-Z1919 (E-L618 ancestor) and it showed another negative SNP for E-M78 itself. Hence it was likely E-M78* as the others. It further looks like E-M78 basals were wide distributed among the late mesolthic hunters.

    Can we really attribute Y-DNA E to basal though? There are suggestions that it comes from the deep ancestral North African component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    I see your point. But It's far-fitched because E-V22 isn't ordinary for a Levantine. It don't exist in Either bronze or iron age Levant, also no existence recorded in the Neolithic or Cooper age periods out of very many tested ancient Levant samples from important Various sites of such wide region (You Can mail the Author of the E-V22 Beriut individual that some researchers predicted it. He is fast responding and will dis-confrim the sample being E-V22 in first place). Coming back to the researchers predicting the samples (One of them is the E-V22 site owner) they regard it actually as a sign of Egyptian influence after discovery. Haplogroup E-V22 TMRCA is just around 6000BC originating in the East side of North Africa (Eugenia D'Atanasio et al.2018) And the Egyptian branches of it are diverse not on a single lineage below. A quick Comparison between Ancient Levant with ancient Egypt as an example from the 6 known trusted Samples so far. (3 of Abusir and 1 of which is Ramsis and 2 from Pushkin). You notice that Out of these 6 possibly all originating from the North a total of 3 are E-V22 (if you would discard Ramses due to Markers insecurity prediction that would make it 2, which yet still a strong presence of the total). Judging E-V22 as Levantine because it have significant presence in Now days southern Levant isn't accurate and isn't counting the Egyptian migrations to this area in the last 1000 years.
    I know some information about this Subclade because I belong to it myself and I catched up with plenty other Egys who do. And I know information about the Egyptian migrations to the Levant, because I myself have relatives doing it in the only last 300 years. Also it's recorded by Middle ages historians. And others in Muhammed Ali's reign.
    And yes I think we really Hijacked the thread away for enough non-related topics. (Well At least E-V22 is distantly related to E-L618, and more aDNA would surely be useful for this manner)

    E-V22 isn’t ordinary for a Levantine and neither is E-M78 in general. Only one very poor quality sample of E-M78 was found in levant. And the iberomaurusian samples predate the E-L618 mutation so who would even be expecting them to have it? Or even it’s precursor. Those samples are around 15,000 years old.

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythoslav View Post
    Can we really attribute Y-DNA E to basal though? There are suggestions that it comes from the deep ancestral North African component.
    Its not known for sure, but the ANA is like an earlier branch from the fully modern trunk, which too spread into most of Africa from a centre, for which the same is true as for Basal Eurasian later. So basically its like that: ANA spread West and mixed later with archaic sapiens, Basal Eurasian stayed at home or moved East with little mixture, "crown" Eurasians moved East and mixed to a higher degree with Neandertals. Where exactly each group was staying, when and where, is so far still unknown.
    Chances are high that Basal Eurasian stayed either in the Nile Valley and/or the Levante/Near East and was E1b1b, whereas ANA spread the clades of E which are now primarily common in Subsaharan Africa. That Iberomaursian predates Natufians doesn't matter, because its a later migration into North West Africa from the centre, whereever it was (Nile Valley or Levante). What matters more, foir the debate and for proving whether E was first ANA and then developed into Basal Eurasian which was spread by E1b1b, are earlier samples from Egypt, Palestine and Yemen in particular. Without having those, we don't actually know who was sitting where. It remains speculative. Yet I doubt that E1b already had its centre anywhere West to the Nile Valley, that's, from my point of view, very unlikely. Because that's the most important demographic stronghold in North and East Africa, if they weren't there, there wouldn't have been the Natufian E1b dominance and wider spread into the Levante.

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  9. #26
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    So boys, looks like we have some new interesting notes related to our talks here from a Recent study sequencing additional high quality aDNA samples from SE Europe :

    In further support for the demic diffusion scenario comes from f-statistics showing Levantine populations to share more drift with Aegeans than with Central Anatolian Neolithic individuals (Fig. S57). This signal could either be due to some long distance gene flow between the Aegeans and the Levant, a higher level of central HG admixture observed in Boncuklu (Fig. S56), or a combination of i) an early migration of the Boncuklu HG ancestors from the Fertile Crescent to Central Anatolia before the Younger Dryas (Fig. 3a, 4c), ii) some gene flow between people from the Levant and the ancestors of Aegeans, who would have remained in the Fertile Crescent and only later migrated to the West.
    Maybe we are also dealing with a sort of a Mobile long distanced type of direct migration as well (and not necessarily a full Diluted Anatolian_Neolithic like population migrating).
    Last edited by The Saite; 11-27-2020 at 09:42 AM.
    Autosomal using ancient populations :
    93% Late Period Ancient Egyptian, 4% JOR_EBA, 3% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi (Just another G25's Scaled results with a Suitable fit).

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Just check with, M78 was present in the Natufians:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...5482499995&z=8
    Quoting myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    There was only one E-M78 out of 8 Natufian and PPNB Levant samples.
    I think I already wrote about length of the time periods which divide E subbranches due to very early separation of E from the rest of the tree. For example, only E-M78 is 6000-7000 year older than R-M269.
    In that sense, discussing about E-M78 based on some other E branch would be almost like discussing R-M269 based on some ancient Q sample (because R and Q are relatively close haplogroups).

  12. #28
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    More Study's notes from the Supp files :

    As Greece Peloponnese samples also show more influence from the Levant (with Israel samples as proxies) than Marmara, Greece (Late Greece) and central European samples (Klein7), see Fig. S57. In addition, the same analyses conducted with the Peloponnese Early Neolithic sample I5427 (labelled here Diros_EN) showed that higher amounts of Levantine ancestry was already present in the Early Neolithic, at least compared to the Barcın samples (Bar8 and Bar25).
    In general, samples from Northern Greece and NW Anatolia show a relatively high level of heterogeneity in shared drift with samples from other populations (Fig. S58, Fig. S57). Particularly interesting differences include the excess shared drift with Levantine samples found for the Nea Nikomedeia sample Nea3 (the older) but not Nea2 (the younger) when comparing these to other samples from the region (Fig. S57). Rev5, which is of similar age as Nea3, also shows a bit more of the Levantine ancestry (Fig. S57), suggesting a decrease in that ancestry over time. While there is no significant f-statistics when directly comparing Rev5 to Nea2 or Nea3, it does seem that all comparisons with the 4 HG_Central and HG_West genomes in our dataset show a trend for an excess shared drift with HG samples for Rev5 and Nea3 (Supp. Table 5).
    Autosomal using ancient populations :
    93% Late Period Ancient Egyptian, 4% JOR_EBA, 3% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi (Just another G25's Scaled results with a Suitable fit).

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    More Study's notes from the Supp files :
    I think remain from Turkey Barcin 8600 yaers old it s very likely was PreE-L618

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