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Thread: Balkan Iron Gate Hunter-Gatherers (Hint to Possible E-L618 "E-V13" Entry to Europe?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    My number one is still that derivatives of E1b entered first the Northern Levante with Natufian and were swept, as a minority element, like H, with the majority of G2 Neolithics into Europe.
    This could have happened either equally and randomly distributed, or with a specific wave of immigrants, which can already alter the scenario significantly into more than one. The advantage of this approach is that we have proof of E1b-lineages in the Levante (Natufian and succeeding cultures), as well as in various European Neolithic cultures (Impresso-Cardial, LBK-Lengyel, Michelsberger), but so far nothing from the time before.
    The seemingly old (Mesolithic? Neolithic?) presence of E-V22 and E-V12 in the Levant also suggests this. However I don't believe the fact Natufians are also E-M35 contributes anything significant to this. Natufians are E-Z830 so the lineages are separated from tens of thousands of years.
    However I think I have seen someone mention that E-M78 was found in 'Ain Ghazal in Jordan, some say it was E-M78* or E-V22. Can anyone confirm?
    Last edited by Shanck; 10-10-2020 at 11:24 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanck View Post
    The seemingly old (Mesolithic? Neolithic?) presence of E-V22 and E-V12 in the Levant also suggests this. However I don't believe the fact Natufians are also E-M35 contributes anything significant to this. Natufians are E-Z830 so the lineages are separated from tens of thousands of years.
    However I think I have seen someone mention that E-M78 was found in 'Ain Ghazal in Jordan, some say it was E-M78* or E-V22. Can anyone confirm?
    Just check with, M78 was present in the Natufians:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...5482499995&z=8

    I mean its clear that there is a continuous stretch of E1b expansions from the Nile Valley/Southern Levant/Southern Arabia in practically all directions. The logical route is just the one of the Natufians. These samples however are early and probably just from one distinct group, E1b might, at that point, been much wider spread. Actually I think that it was pushed back in the Mesolithic by the descendents of F and being at home in the region from Nile Valley to the Levante/Arabia far longer in the form of "Basal Eurasian". I see for E no clear border between Africa and Asia, they were at the borderzone and my guess is that this was true for very, very long. Basically the same Mesolithic and early Neolithic pushes reached, from a centre in the Nile Valley/Levante/Southern Arabia the later Natufian zone and North Africa. That's why a precursor to V13 was present in both North West Africa (Taforalt) and the Levante (Natufian). Like the steppe people, they moved both West and East at roughly the same time, having a population dynamic, demographic and cultural advantage for a period of time.
    Since this was a big push from the E1b heartland (Nile Valley and/or Southern Levante/Arabia), you will find a high diversity of E1b's among both of them. The diversity just became reduced with the advance and those staying behind in the Near East, like the predecessors of Arslantepe, were a different branch then those moving into Europe with G2 and H.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-10-2020 at 11:47 AM.

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    E-M78 was in the Natufians? All was found was E-Z830 & E1b1* "CT".
    Last edited by Shanck; 10-10-2020 at 11:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanck View Post
    The seemingly old (Mesolithic? Neolithic?) presence of E-V22 and E-V12 in the Levant also suggests this. However I don't believe the fact Natufians are also E-M35 contributes anything significant to this. Natufians are E-Z830 so the lineages are separated from tens of thousands of years.
    However I think I have seen someone mention that E-M78 was found in 'Ain Ghazal in Jordan, some say it was E-M78* or E-V22. Can anyone confirm?
    Ain Ghazal's PPN sample isn't E-V22, it's roughly E-M78*. Although the Existence of both E-V22 & E-V12 in the Levant is likely to be Historic Egyptian more than it being Neolithic or Mesolithic. Their absence in the plenty of bronze to iron age Levant samples tested tells it IMO, And the news about the Iron age E-V22 Beirut Sample from Haber 2020 is inscure. Even tho Egyptian admixture was present noticeably in the city at that time. The Author still didn't confirm it.
    Last edited by The Saite; 10-10-2020 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Just check with, M78 was present in the Natufians:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...5482499995&z=8

    I mean its clear that there is a continuous stretch of E1b expansions from the Nile Valley/Southern Levant/Southern Arabia in practically all directions. The logical route is just the one of the Natufians. These samples however are early and probably just from one distinct group, E1b might, at that point, been much wider spread. Actually I think that it was pushed back in the Mesolithic by the descendents of F and being at home in the region from Nile Valley to the Levante/Arabia far longer in the form of "Basal Eurasian". I see for E no clear border between Africa and Asia, they were at the borderzone and my guess is that this was true for very, very long. Basically the same Mesolithic and early Neolithic pushes reached, from a centre in the Nile Valley/Levante/Southern Arabia the later Natufian zone and North Africa. That's why a precursor to V13 was present in both North West Africa (Taforalt) and the Levante (Natufian). Like the steppe people, they moved both West and East at roughly the same time, having a population dynamic, demographic and cultural advantage for a period of time.
    Since this was a big push from the E1b heartland (Nile Valley and/or Southern Levante/Arabia), you will find a high diversity of E1b's among both of them. The diversity just became reduced with the advance and those staying behind in the Near East, like the predecessors of Arslantepe, were a different branch then those moving into Europe with G2 and H.
    I actually have the capability to agree with most of the Theories you mentioned even it's kind of Exotic for most parts. But I wanted also to add here that the precursor to V13 (if you meant E-L618) wasn't present in the tested Taforalt individuals. That news was suggested by a researcher that SNP called one of them, However the same sample was negative to E-Z1919 (E-L618 ancestor) and it showed another negative SNP for E-M78 itself. Hence it was likely E-M78* as the others. It further looks like E-M78 basals were wide distributed among the late mesolthic hunters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    I actually have the capability to agree with most of the Theories you mentioned even it's kind of Exotic for most parts. But I wanted also to add here that the precursor to V13 (if you meant E-L618) wasn't present in the tested Taforalt individuals. That news was suggested by a researcher that SNP called one of them, However the same sample was negative to E-Z1919 (E-L618 ancestor) and it showed another negative SNP for E-M78 itself. Hence it was likely E-M78* as the others. It further looks like E-M78 basals were wide distributed among the late mesolthic hunters.
    I didn't imply it was proven already, I just assume it, like testers assume positive SNP's in the presence of other proven ones, because its a logical consquence. In the same vein I'm pretty sure E-V22 was in the Neolithic Levante. Not sure about V12 though, but guess so too.

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    I have already posted this before, but this paper is very important on latter Early Neolithic revolution. Hunters from Paleolithic/Mesolithic Egypt are the world's first chert miners.

    Chert rnines are among the first structures of prehistoric man's activities to
    have been observed. The economical changes and the population expansion accompanying the spread of early agriculture in the Near East and Europe constitute a real technical revolution. According to G. Smolla (1987), flint mining
    could have been an especially important part of this process, and indeed, until some years ago, all chert mining sites reported in the literature, were younger
    than 12,000 years, most of them being confined to the period of 6,000 to 4,000
    years ago (Weisgerber, Slotta and Weiner 1980).
    Research by the Belgian Middle Egypt Prehistoric Project of Leuven University since 1980 led to the discovery of two important Palaeolithic chert exploitation areas, one at Nazlet Safaha, near Qena, and another at Nazlet Khater, near
    Tahta, both in southem Egypt (Fig. 1).

    Middle Palaeolithic quarrying
    The area of Nazlet Safaha is situated on the west bank of the Nile,
    downstream of Dandara Temple (Vermeersch et al. 1986. In this publication the
    site has been erroneously named Nazlet Sabaha). It is located near the river Nile,
    on a Nile cobble terrace remnant, which is still quarried for gravel in many small
    pits. The bars of the former channel deposits, with their top at about 7 m above
    the Nile floodplain, are 2 to 3 m thick and rest disconformably on very coarse
    Nile sands. The terrace deposits contain mainly metamorphous and eruptive,
    but also quartz and chert cobbles with a diameter of up to 0.2 m. The matrix is
    composed of pebbles and coarse sands. The chert cobbles are round or ellipsoidal. The cobble deposit is overlain by medium sands of variable thickness
    (about 0.5 m).

    Excavations in January 1988 resulted in the discovery of an area (sites 1
    and 2) of about 3,000 m2 which had been exploited in Middle Palaeolithic times
    (Fig. 2). Prehistoric man extracted the chert cobbles from the terrace deposits
    in an open trench and pit system (Fig. 3) with a maximal depth of about 1.7 m.
    This means that only the uppermost part of the cobble terrace was extracted.
    The trenches exhibit vertical walls with only minor undercuttings. The trench
    width varies from about 1 to nearly 2 m. At site 1, exploitation was so intensive
    that an area of more than 1,000 m2 was completely exploited.


    https://books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/p...0-20170119.pdf

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    They should get ancient, pre-Natufian Mesolithic and if possible Paleolithic DNA from Egypt, Palestine and Yemen. That's crucial, not just for E1b, but also for the "Basal Eurasian" story. I heard they might work on it right now. As I see it, E1b-Basal Eurasian groups moved forth and back from the Levante into Egypt and vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I didn't imply it was proven already, I just assume it, like testers assume positive SNP's in the presence of other proven ones, because its a logical consquence. In the same vein I'm pretty sure E-V22 was in the Neolithic Levante. Not sure about V12 though, but guess so too.
    Well, Let's see what we are going to find with more Neolithic Levant samples and also Egyptian ones. As you said it's really important to have this sort of samples as far as Paleolithic

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    Well, Let's see what we are going to find with more Neolithic Levant samples and also Egyptian ones. As you said it's really important to have this sort of samples as far as Paleolithic
    The problem with Egypt is just that, most likely, the most important finds are below 10 m plus mud. I once heard that even more recent finds were quite submerged. The Nile valley might even be crucial, imho, for Homo sapiens evolutionary development, but living close to a river like the Nile is not ideal for archaeological conservation, unless they buried their dead in the desert, which they seem to have not for the most part. I think that's the main reason some dry East African regions are in the focus, while Egypt being not - its just not that friendly for archaeological excavations.

    Like
    Some of the oldest known structures were discovered in Egypt by archaeologist Waldemar Chmielewski along the southern border near Wadi Halfa, Sudan in Arkin 8 site. Chmielewski dated the structures to 100,000 BC.[4] The remains of the structures are oval depressions about 30 cm deep and 2 × 1 meters across. Many are lined with flat sandstone slabs. They are called tent rings, because the rocks supported a dome-like shelter of skins or brush. This type of dwelling provided a place to live, but if necessary, could be taken down easily and moved. They were mobile structures—easily disassembled, moved, and reassembled—providing hunter-gatherers with semi-permanent habitation.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Egypt

    We can just assume that there was much more along the Nile, but its probably all gone forever or very hard to retrieve if possible at all.

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