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Thread: If Iberia had not received DNA from North Africans and Sephardic Jews?

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    If Iberia had not received DNA from North Africans and Sephardic Jews?

    Where would they have their place at the PCA today? What genetics would they have? Would they be genetically identical to the French ones?

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    sounds reasonable.

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    Crazily, I don't see any real evidence of noticeable trace level Sephardic DNA in majority modern Iberians autosomally. There are a select few exceptions to this rule. It seems majority of Jews chose to GTFO or die, despite stories of many secretive converso Jews keeping tradition only within their private life. If anything I see more evidence for Sephardic DNA in especially Mexicans, some other Central Americans and South Americans. The absorption of Morisco's and African Slave trade IMO seemed to have a bigger impact on modern old world Iberians.

    Probably better someone else answers your main question, I can just say I've noticed some IA Iberians and IA Central Italians are pretty similar. I'm guessing Iberia would have always been more Southern shifted (Neolithic Anatolian) than France regardless migrations from Africa.

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    They would cluster with Basques. We already know this because we have Iron Age genomes from Iberia. Some regional groups with more Celtic or Germanic ancestry might be shifted toward the French, but Iberia as a whole would be Basque-like without North African (which was already significant in Southern Iberia before the Moors, by the way) or East Med (almost certainly Roman, not Jewish) influences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Crazily, I don't see any real evidence of noticeable trace level Sephardic DNA in majority modern Iberians autosomally. There are a select few exceptions to this rule. It seems majority of Jews chose to GTFO or die, despite stories of many secretive converso Jews keeping tradition only within their private life. If anything I see more evidence for Sephardic DNA in especially Mexicans, some other Central Americans and South Americans. The absorption of Morisco's and African Slave trade IMO seemed to have a bigger impact on modern old world Iberians.

    Probably better someone else answers your main question, I can just say I've noticed some IA Iberians and IA Central Italians are pretty similar. I'm guessing Iberia would have always been more Southern shifted (Neolithic Anatolian) than France regardless migrations from Africa.
    So you'd disagree with the findings in this study? I'm just curious. I don't have a strong opinion on the findings of autosomal studies, since I think they still face challenges in identifying Sephardic ancestry, as the authors in that study admit.

    In historical terms, I find it hard to believe that Sephardim wouldn't have left any trace autosomally, particularly in Portugal, where they formed 10% of the population at the end of the 15th century. Even with outmigration over the course of the 16th and 17th centuries, the impact couldn't have been totally erased. But I think you're right about the impact being potentially more visible in areas of Latin America, considering that conversos were over-represented (as compared with the percentages in Iberia) as a percentage of colonists during certain periods (perhaps 1/3 of early settlers in the first decades of colonization in Brazil, for instance).

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    If I go by G25 then the North African admixture seems to be exaggerated by some people. Most areas seem to have greater affinity to east med populations (I use Greek_Kos and Central_Anatolia as proxy) than they do to North African ones (using Berbers from Morocco and Tunisia_Chen).

    Here is the output I get:

     


    Especially the Balearic Islands seem to have a significant 'East Med' shift. But this doesn't have to be from Sephardic Jews, it could just be from Romans, right?
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    They would cluster with Basques. We already know this because we have Iron Age genomes from Iberia. Some regional groups with more Celtic or Germanic ancestry might be shifted toward the French, but Iberia as a whole would be Basque-like without North African (which was already significant in Southern Iberia before the Moors, by the way) or East Med (almost certainly Roman, not Jewish) influences.
    Exactly, our genetic would be mostly Basque, more or less, or very similar to South French.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    So you'd disagree with the findings in this study? I'm just curious. I don't have a strong opinion on the findings of autosomal studies, since I think they still face challenges in identifying Sephardic ancestry, as the authors in that study admit.
    Yeah, a couple things that don't sound right, why would Tunisians be approximately 1/4 descended from Sephardic Jews? Secondly it's already flawed in that they are using Turkish Jews to represent a Sephardic cluster, I get they are better representative than many available Jewish populations but we're both well aware the number of different Jews which streamed into the Ottoman Empire post 1492.

    In historical terms, I find it hard to believe that Sephardim wouldn't have left any trace autosomally, particularly in Portugal, where they formed 10% of the population at the end of the 15th century. Even with outmigration over the course of the 16th and 17th centuries, the impact couldn't have been totally erased. But I think you're right about the impact being potentially more visible in areas of Latin America, considering that conversos were over-represented (as compared with the percentages in Iberia) as a percentage of colonists during certain periods (perhaps 1/3 of early settlers in the first decades of colonization in Brazil, for instance).
    I find it hard to believe a bit too! I'm also even surprised how little Iberian admixture seems to be among Eastern Sephardic Jews going off autosomal analysis. Perhaps what you're saying COULD explain why some Portuguese can be sometimes overlapping with Northern Italians in West-Eruasian PCA's away from some Spaniards, but that could also well be Portugal having historically a North African influence. Anyway I think by 1497 there was a second expulsion of Iberian Jews, this time in Portugal, but I get that some may have gone on to become conversos as there have been genetic studies of isolated groups like the Belmonte community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I find it hard to believe a bit too! I'm also even surprised how little Iberian admixture seems to be among Eastern Sephardic Jews going off autosomal analysis. Perhaps what you're saying COULD explain why some Portuguese can be sometimes overlapping with Northern Italians in West-Eruasian PCA's away from some Spaniards, but that could also well be Portugal having historically a North African influence. Anyway I think by 1497 there was a second expulsion of Iberian Jews, this time in Portugal, but I get that some may have gone on to become conversos as there have been genetic studies of isolated groups like the Belmonte community.
    Most Jews in Portugal as of 1497 were sequestered and forced to convert. The conversos were then prohibited to leave. The prohibition was relaxed following the 1506 Lisbon massacre, but reinstated in the 1530s when the Portuguese Inquisition was instated. Thereafter outmigration continued, but in fits and starts, and very covertly. This is partly why crypto-Judaism was a much more prolonged phenomenon in Portugal than in Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    So you'd disagree with the findings in this study? I'm just curious. I don't have a strong opinion on the findings of autosomal studies, since I think they still face challenges in identifying Sephardic ancestry, as the authors in that study admit.

    In historical terms, I find it hard to believe that Sephardim wouldn't have left any trace autosomally, particularly in Portugal, where they formed 10% of the population at the end of the 15th century. Even with outmigration over the course of the 16th and 17th centuries, the impact couldn't have been totally erased. But I think you're right about the impact being potentially more visible in areas of Latin America, considering that conversos were over-represented (as compared with the percentages in Iberia) as a percentage of colonists during certain periods (perhaps 1/3 of early settlers in the first decades of colonization in Brazil, for instance).
    Sephardim jewish left some traces in modern iberian populations, more than own spanish and portuguese expect. Particularly, part of castilian and aragonese jewish chose staying in these Kingdoms after Granada Decree, even a few of expelled returned months later. Talking about numbers is always relative, last researchs talks about 100 000 jews expelled and 150 000 - 200 000 chose staying here converted to Catholicism. Then many converse were judged by Inquisition, some of them dying, and some fews of them, althought seems lie, were forgiven. Not only tradicional narratives and some familiar habits, nowadays we have many articles and researchs about this, I would say the professor and Cathedratic Enrique Soria Mesa is a great referent, you can consulting his biography, he has many articles. Converse people hide very well their origins and sometimes created falses genealogies with old Christian due to "Limpieza de Sangre" legislation.

    With all of this, I want to say jewish influence in Iberia are only traces, but is very complex to analyse by autosomal genetic, if in each generation we receive 50 of mother and 50 of father, in many generations before, fifteen estimated to reach 15th century, many traces can be lost and major genetic, that is autoctonal and milenial iberian, remain with infinity more probability.

    The point is as I see, jewish genetic is present through traces, but if someone don't have any traces, maybe he/she could have an jewish ancestor without genetic trace in his/her DNA. All Spaniards and Portuguese have jewish ancestors? Of course not. Is more probably that practically all iberian have North African genetic (ancient or medieval) that jewish. But narratives about converse presence after expulsion are more extenses and numerous that appears in books of History in schools of for example Spain. Why? First the ignorante about this (I was the first that believed jewish contribution was minnor before research, then I discovered I was in a mistake), and second History manipulated and politised by certain ideology conservative (neither help other ideologies that talk about an idealised convivence in al-Andalus, exaggerating this question in opposite to the other ideology).
    Last edited by rober_tce; 10-10-2020 at 06:12 AM.
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