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Thread: UMAP of (sub)modern Europeans

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    That's too wild IMO.

    North Dutch always was a part of the North European Plain between the North Sea and the Baltics, so the circulation of the gene pool was primarily in that area (North Germany/ Southern Scandinavia). Funnelbeakers, Single Grave, NE Dutch Bell Beakers all were prominent (and may be even unique) above the Rhine. During migration time the Saxons, Chauken (originally Elb Germans), Jutes and may be even some West Norwegians (elite) came in

    Beneath the Rhine in the Southern Netherlands (South Dutch) the circulation is much more Central West European, with Southwest Germany, Northern France and also some Roman influences (the Roman Limes) was along the Rhine. The influence was from the Rhineland Germans aka Franks, but I don't know if this was more an elite than as big as in the North from the Elb Germans and Scandics.

    So in fact (may be exaggerated) we don't share not a common genepool....in our stamp big country...above and beneath Rhine even more with such Sweden vs France results

    This map for the 80th birthday of Bronze Age Archeologist JJ Butler, reveals much:
    Thanks for that. I was about to reply in a basic fashion and wanted to add that perhaps you could chime in, as you're quite well versed regarding the subject. But you beat me to it, ha!

    Father: Distance 0.01665853 | 65.2 Dutch / 20.2 French / 12.2 German / 2.4 Italian
    Mother: Distance 0.01487968 | 75.0 Belgian / 15.0 French / 5.2 Italian / 4.8 German

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Is there a way to run this online, in the same way as with Vahaduo etc? As I am still restricted to my phone, but I would like to look at this in more detail, and add me and my grandmother to see if anything new pops up.
    In the first place: I too have maternal H13a1a1.

    I could not include your wive, because the dataset is European only.

    The plot is literally thickening. You interfere with Finn samples
    UMAP4.2.png

    evon:
    [1] "VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK40" "Icelandic:NA15759" "VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK406"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden7" "VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK337" "VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK174"
    [7] "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK320" "FinnMom" "HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ16"

    evon_GM
    [1] "England_Saxon:I0774" "VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA:VK219" "VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK40"
    [4] "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK320" "Finn" "VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA:VK101"
    [7] "FinnMom" "VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK549" "VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK489"

    compare with the Finns:
    Finn:
    [1] "FinnMom" "FinnDad" "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK290"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden7" "Swedish:Sweden9" "VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK172"
    [7] "VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK316" "VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK373" "VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK58"

    Finn_dad
    [1] "Finn" "Welsh:WalesDR94" "Swedish:Sweden9"
    [4] "English:England11" "VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA:VK219" "Swedish:Sweden4"
    [7] "England_Saxon:I0774" "Norwegian:NOR108" "VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK40"

    Finn_mom
    [1] "Finn" "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK290" "Swedish:Sweden7"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden9" "VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK173" "VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK496"
    [7] "FinnDad" "ITA_Collegno_MA:CL84" "Scottish:Scottish5"

    You share FinnMom with the Finns and Sweden7 with Finn and FinnMom
    Your grandmother shares (Finn and FinnMom) with the Finns and (VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA:VK219, England_Saxon:I0774, VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK40) with FinnDad

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    In the first place: I too have maternal H13a1a1.
    .

    The plot is literally thickening. You interfere with Finn samples
    UMAP4.2.png
    Thank you.

    Not so many H13 people around, how much do you know about your maternal line?

    Yes, my family tend to plot close to the Finns, I guess it is a northern pull for them and a southern pull for us, that bring us together, creating the illusion of similarity.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Thank you.

    Not so many H13 people around, how much do you know about your maternal line?

    Yes, my family tend to plot close to the Finns, I guess it is a northern pull for them and a southern pull for us, that bring us together, creating the illusion of similarity.
    Or our gggg grand parents were on Doggerland one went North and the other went South, separated by the new rollercoaster the North Sea.....

    Seriously what I could think of are just educated guesses. This is one of them:
    https://www.academia.edu/2464050/Pre...ical_watershed

    And may be in the end it could be coincidence after all.....

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    It would be interesting if you'd eventually add forum members whose data you have, I guess most would be interested in that
    Quick job, a few European groups, and some users (from present and past) gathered in my archives:
    Agamemnon
    Agamemnon_Dad
    Agamemnon_Mom
    Pat_S
    dad
    Equilbey
    Tim_G
    Garimund
    Huijbregts
    Helgi
    Helgi_mum
    Jessie
    Jackson_Devoni
    Michael_Devoni
    Cheryl_Montgomery
    JMcB
    MrsRuderico
    Mitchell
    angle_mom
    Ruderico
    Tomenable
    Timberwolf
    Smith_J
    Smith_R
    Smith_Wrenn_H
    AlainM
    Jouan_AnneMarie
    Trelvern
    StephaneB
    CC_data-2017-11-10
    CC_11-11
    christophe_c
    Derrienj
    Gery
    GE
    EmilieLB
    Fabrice_E
    Genevieve_29
    Isabelle
    Jerome
    Marie
    LaureM
    marie_louise_29
    Ophelie
    prosper29
    Stephane_Herve
    scaperbzh
    SimonM
    Simone29
    CelineAunt
    tolan
    Yvette
    Conqueror_scaled
    Titane

    umap_quick_forum.jpg
    colors.JPG

    A searchable pdf with the usernames, for those who have a plot.

    quick_forum_umap_names.pdf
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Thank you.

    Not so many H13 people around, how much do you know about your maternal line?

    Yes, my family tend to plot close to the Finns, I guess it is a northern pull for them and a southern pull for us, that bring us together, creating the illusion of similarity.
    This is not an illusion of similarity, but a real closeness of the genetic data.
    It might be caused by the Germanic expansion.
    But more recent events are also possible, for instance recent Swedish ancestors of Finn.

    Unfortunately my maternal line ends after 4 generations in an out of marriage birth. All women lived in the West of the Dutch province Noord-Brabant.

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Quick job, a few European groups, and some users (from present and past) gathered in my archives:
    Agamemnon
    Agamemnon_Dad
    Agamemnon_Mom
    Pat_S
    dad
    Equilbey
    Tim_G
    Garimund
    Huijbregts
    Helgi
    Helgi_mum
    Jessie
    Jackson_Devoni
    Michael_Devoni
    Cheryl_Montgomery
    JMcB
    MrsRuderico
    Mitchell
    angle_mom
    Ruderico
    Tomenable
    Timberwolf
    Smith_J
    Smith_R
    Smith_Wrenn_H
    AlainM
    Jouan_AnneMarie
    Trelvern
    StephaneB
    CC_data-2017-11-10
    CC_11-11
    christophe_c
    Derrienj
    Gery
    GE
    EmilieLB
    Fabrice_E
    Genevieve_29
    Isabelle
    Jerome
    Marie
    LaureM
    marie_louise_29
    Ophelie
    prosper29
    Stephane_Herve
    scaperbzh
    SimonM
    Simone29
    CelineAunt
    tolan
    Yvette
    Conqueror_scaled
    Titane

    umap_quick_forum.jpg
    colors.JPG

    A searchable pdf with the usernames, for those who have a plot.

    quick_forum_umap_names.pdf
    Thank you. What is interesting is the closeness of some populations especially Northwestern Europe. There has obviously been some constant gene flow at the edges because all these populations don't form separate clusters. If you have some less gene flow you will get drift which will cause a population to form it's own cluster. I know this might be obvious but I still find it interesting. It is obvious that the sea is not really a barrier when you look at this but mountain ranges are more a barrier to population movement.

    What do other's think?

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  15. #28
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    Edit of Finn nearest neighbors:

    I forgot that after the insertion of even, the neighbors of the Finns have changed.
    Here are the adjusted neighors:

    Finn:
    [1] "FinnMom" "FinnDad" "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK290"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden7" "evon_GM" "Swedish:Sweden9"
    [7] "VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK172" "VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK316" "VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK58"

    FinnDad:
    [1] "Finn" "Welsh:WalesDR94" "VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK40"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden9" "VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA:VK219" "English:England11"
    [7] "Swedish:Sweden4" "English_Cornwall:HG00259" "VK2020_Faroes_EM:VK238"

    FinnMom:
    [1] "Finn" "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK290" "Swedish:Sweden9"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden7" "evon_GM" "evon"
    [7] "FinnDad" "VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK173" "ITA_Collegno_MA:CL84"

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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    This is not an illusion of similarity, but a real closeness of the genetic data.
    It might be caused by the Germanic expansion.
    But more recent events are also possible, for instance recent Swedish ancestors of Finn.

    Unfortunately my maternal line ends after 4 generations in an out of marriage birth. All women lived in the West of the Dutch province Noord-Brabant.
    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Yes, my family tend to plot close to the Finns, I guess it is a northern pull for them and a southern pull for us, that bring us together, creating the illusion of similarity.
    On second thought I think it's really the interaction between the Southern Scandic and Northern Plain. And in the North Dutch/ Western-Norway case even more. It's due to the fact that they border the highway of the ancients: the North Sea.

    Here we have a map from an exposition in the Frisian museum, it's from the North Sea perspective. But from this perspective West-Norway and Friesland are neighboring tipping points:


    The West-Norway, North Dutch interaction is old, the Funnelbeakers were there in Hamremoen (Norway) and in Drenthe (North Dutch), the North Dutch Beakers went to Scotland so Slettabø (West Norway, see paper Prescott) is also within reach, the Bronze Age was also heavily interacted, archeologist Nicolay has mentioned West-Norwegian influx during migration time, later on in Hanseatic times were Groningen as Bergen important Hanseatic cities.....in this interacted 'turmoil' it's not easy to pinpoint what is the exact the connection, but that there was interaction is IMO without doubt.

    @Huijbregts I think that's partly due to the samples I guess when you used the Anglo-Saxon samples for example we would plot more near to them. Based on the paper trail I can rule out any recent influence, and there were no Swedish 'enclaves' in my region, so I guess the biggest factor is the interaction I just mentioned.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2020 at 05:01 PM.

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    Edit of Finn nearest neighbors:

    I forgot that after the insertion of even, the neighbors of the Finns have changed.
    Here are the adjusted neighors:

    Finn:
    [1] "FinnMom" "FinnDad" "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK290"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden7" "evon_GM" "Swedish:Sweden9"
    [7] "VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK172" "VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK316" "VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK58"

    FinnDad:
    [1] "Finn" "Welsh:WalesDR94" "VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK40"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden9" "VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA:VK219" "English:England11"
    [7] "Swedish:Sweden4" "English_Cornwall:HG00259" "VK2020_Faroes_EM:VK238"

    FinnMom:
    [1] "Finn" "VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK290" "Swedish:Sweden9"
    [4] "Swedish:Sweden7" "evon_GM" "evon"
    [7] "FinnDad" "VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK173" "ITA_Collegno_MA:CL84"

    Thanks Huijbregts you see here also a slightly different orientation of my parents, Finn Mom is more NE wards, Finn Dad more W wards....

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