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Thread: Autosomal of Egyptian pharaohs?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisdandy View Post
    With these types of results why do afro centrists still hold onto their ideas that ancient Egyptians were black African?
    Come on, you know that's not going to go anywhere constructive. I am no fan of Afrocentrists either, but they are not one-size-fits-all. Their thinkers and claims range from idiotic to sensible. If you're talking about the loonies who think Egyptians looked West African or Nilote-like, who cares what they think? Irrational people are not going to be swayed by data in any case. See Eran Elhaik.

    But most so-called Afrocentrists who support a "black Egypt" claim that they were more like Horn African pastoralists, who are very West Eurasian-mixed anyway. That said, it's looking unlikely that most historical Egyptians (Old Kingdom onward) were Horn African-like either, but it's still entirely possible predynastic Upper Egyptians (Badarians) were, and that important aspects of the civilization's origins are to be found deep in East Africa. These claims might turn out to be totally wrong, too, but they're not crazy. Neither is the prospect of a cline from Abusir-like to Beja-like people going from the Delta to Nubia. I would wait for the relevant data to come in before celebrating too loudly. We have absolutely nothing from Old Kingdom Upper Egypt or Nubia and that's going to be important.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 10-31-2020 at 07:23 PM.
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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses View Post
    at the time of the Badari there were no groups in east africa who looked like Horn african pastoralists.
    I find it unlikely that people with a mixed Ancient East African+Natufian profile weren't around 6000 to 7000 years ago. That doesn't necessarily mean they were in the Horn itself. They could have been restricted to Sudan for all we know. And don't take the "pastoralist" term too literally-- it's possible there were already Natufian+AEA-like hunter-gatherers in Northeast Africa. Consider that the major splits in Afro-Asiatic were pre-agricultural; whether these nodes spread from West Asia or the Nile Valley near the Med or from way down south along the Red Sea-- there is likely to have been contact between very different types of people early on. Think about it.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 10-31-2020 at 09:02 PM.
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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisdandy View Post
    but im tired of being called an invading ayrab
    Throughout Egyptian history, most Egyptians were almost certainly like you, I'd bet money on it. The Middle and New Kingdom samples, Hyksos-descended or not, confirm continuity with Copts. The Old Kingdom leak from Kolgeh suggests we're going to see more of the same. So you've already won the heritage lottery, honey; don't sweat it. All I'm saying is that there are still some lingering mysteries-- a significantly SSA-mixed element in prehistoric and maybe even historic Upper Egypt can't be ruled out yet. You think Egypt's population history is ambiguous? Try your hand at Nubia and prepare for a real headache. Ancient DNA exploration of Northeast Africa will be a godsend.
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  7. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Throughout Egyptian history, most Egyptians were almost certainly like you, I'd bet money on it. The Middle and New Kingdom samples, Hyksos-descended or not, confirm continuity with Copts. The Old Kingdom leak from Kolgeh suggests we're going to see more of the same. So you've already won the heritage lottery, honey; don't sweat it. All I'm saying is that there are still some lingering mysteries-- a significantly SSA-mixed element in prehistoric and maybe even historic Upper Egypt can't be ruled out yet. You think Egypt's population history is ambiguous? Try your hand at Nubia and prepare for a real headache. Ancient DNA exploration of Northeast Africa will be a godsend.
    You know as someone who truly cares and loves history..even if I turned out to represent autosomally the asiatic or hyksos elements of Egypt...then I'd be happy with that but that is part and parcel of Egyptian history and heritage. Also in my personal belief, I do think I represent the asiatic type Egyptian and the beja types were more likely there way before my profile.

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  9. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses View Post
    at the time of the Badari there were no groups in east africa who looked like Horn african pastoralists.
    Actually its possible they preceeded them.
    We don't know this for sure. I will start by saying that Cushitic and Omotic are older than Badari in East Africa?.

    What we DO know is that their northern ancestors were already there. In the model of these Pastoralists being a composite of EN1 and EN2 this combination could have already existed below the Sahara, it could have been either of these singular components or any related Sister group or parent group to hypothetical EN1 and/or EN2.


    "Work carried out in 1969–70 to the west of Lothagam, in the large early Holocene inlet between Lothagam and the Napedet Hills, resulted in additional finds of bone harpoons but, most important, in the first discovery of wavy line pottery buried within early Holocene lake sediments dated to ca. 7,960 +/− 140 BP (Robbins 1972: fig. 6; Robbins 1980). The discovery of this early Holocene pottery, in a pre–food production context in Africa south of the Sahara, challenged the prevailing point of view. MosT workers believed that pottery had been introduced into sub-Saharan Africa much more recently and that it was almost certainly associated with the advent of either food production and/or the spread of ‘‘Iron Age’’ peoples. This discovery of wavy line pottery, as well as the undecorated pottery at Lothagam, was a significant breakthrough, even though it did not alter the main picture that in most other areas of sub-Saharan Africa"
    Source

    I question ANY and ALL recent dates of northern Influence south of the Sahara. Right now what we are lacking is the genetic evidence, the archeology is already there 8000 years ago.

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    Last edited by beyoku; 10-31-2020 at 10:26 PM.

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  11. #126
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    I am interested on results of Qadan and Sebilian cultures. Very important sites. Somehow i have the feeling E-L618 will be found in one of those Mesolithic sites.

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  13. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses View Post
    wavy line pottery is associated with Khartoum Mesolithic pottery which is unmixed Sudanese hunter gatherer group ,
    What we are talking about are the Western Eurasian Pastoralists of North africa , This people are associated with the Pastoral Neolithic of east africa and the introduction of both food-production and Afro-asiatic languages there they are dated to about 2000 BC , prior to that Horn africa were Mota-like HG.



    There Northern ancestors were already there but without the major admixture events, which means the EN1 and EN2 were not yet Significantly admixed and were still genetically separated, it might have started
    with the Pastoral groups migrating into Sudan and slightly admixing with the hunter gathering local groups of east africa at the beginning , which means sporadic admixture , but not significant..
    Its also possible the Pastorals migrated first in small numbers into sudan and formed an Elite clan over a majority Local Sudanese groups...its not until ~3200 BC where a major admixture event is detected
    of a population carrying about 65% West Eurasian ancestry and 35% Sudanese-Nilotic ancestry have appeared.
    You don't know know this. You are making inferences about genetic data we don't have. Multiple sites all across North Africa are associated with this pottery and its data indicates its origin in Central Sudan. I hope you understand the implications when arguing "un-admixed Sudanese Huntergathers" spread this technology all across the region.

    What evidence are you using to infer they are homogenous? The little evidence we already have at Takarkori where this pottery is abundant shows an ancestral N maternal lineage. Is this N maternal lineage a Sudanese Hunter Gatherer lineage?

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  15. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Throughout Egyptian history, most Egyptians were almost certainly like you, I'd bet money on it. The Middle and New Kingdom samples, Hyksos-descended or not, confirm continuity with Copts. The Old Kingdom leak from Kolgeh suggests we're going to see more of the same. So you've already won the heritage lottery, honey; don't sweat it. All I'm saying is that there are still some lingering mysteries-- a significantly SSA-mixed element in prehistoric and maybe even historic Upper Egypt can't be ruled out yet. You think Egypt's population history is ambiguous? Try your hand at Nubia and prepare for a real headache. Ancient DNA exploration of Northeast Africa will be a godsend.
    In my humble opinion, it would be best not to encourage or even coddle people into taking pride in their heritage based on actual ancestry to ancient inhabitants of the country they live in. The idea that North Africa and Egypt have remained the same throughout human history from since the neolithic to the present is rather far-fetched and borders on unrealistic nationalism. Furthermore, what on earth is wrong with modern Egyptians taking pride in Ancient Egyptian culture as their national heritage whether or not they are direct descendants of Ancient Egyptians?

    This approach of linking national cultural heritage to genetics will just lead people to setting themselves up for a) disappointment when or if later results prove their belief wrong, b) bias in interpreting results to suit a preconceived agenda, and c) an anti-scientific attitude which rejects results that do not fit the nationalist agenda.
    Last edited by Mansamusa; 11-01-2020 at 02:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    In my humble opinion, it would be best not to encourage or even coddle people into taking pride in their heritage based on actual ancestry to ancient inhabitants of the country they live in. The idea that North Africa and Egypt have remained the same throughout human history from since the neolithic to the present is rather far-fetched and borders on unrealistic nationalism. Furthermore, what on earth is wrong with modern Egyptians taking pride in Ancient Egyptian culture as their national heritage whether or not they are direct descendants of Ancient Egyptians?

    This approach of linking national cultural heritage to genetics will just lead people to setting themselves up for a) disappointment when or if later results prove their belief wrong, b) bias in interpreting results to suit a preconceived agenda, and c) an anti-scientific attitude which rejects results that do not fit the nationalist agenda.
    In more general circumstances I'd agree if it weren't for the context of modern Egyptians being dismissed by many in the West as the descendants of assorted Eurasian invaders, be they Arab/Greek/Roman/Persian/Turkish, who are thus estranged from their ancestors. On top of that, the Coptic population have long been under the boot of Islamist persecution; ranging from structural oppression of their faith by legal practice to mass murder, sexual violence and coercion of women to abandon their faith and convert to Islam. In these circumstances, it is well justified that they should embrace their identity and celebrate their culture.

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