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Thread: Any German Results from AncestryDNA for Comparison?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Not sure about that, is there any white paper or background information on their samples?



    I don't post details, but I did score about 85 percent Germanic, which is by far the highest result I got for that part of my ancesty. On 23andme both my East European and Balkan is higher than on AncestryDNA, but its still in the range and consistent overall if comparing the two results with the possible margin, unlike the more oracle-like results from the other competitors.
    Here's a link to where you can download their ethnicity white paper. they don't specify except for stating they take references with ancestry only from one place. It seems like common sense to me and I don't think it needs to be specified but what's common to me may not make sense to you

    https://support.ancestry.ca/s/articl...language=en_CA

    Do you have a high percentage of 23andme's broadly northwestern europe? When you say "I don't post details" about your ethnicity estimates would you be willing to elaborate as to why that is, particularly when you're asking other people to post theirs?
    Last edited by sktibo; 10-18-2020 at 06:26 AM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Here's a link to where you can download their ethnicity white paper. they don't specify except for stating they take references with ancestry only from one place. It seems like common sense to me and I don't think it needs to be specified but what's common to me may not make sense to you

    https://support.ancestry.ca/s/articl...language=en_CA
    Thanks, they confirm what rothaer, me and others said about Germanics in general, by commenting that:
    This graph also shows that certain ethnicities can be confounded by other ethnicities. For example, individuals with 100% Germanic Europe ethnicity can be assigned to England & Northwestern Europe and Sweden.
    For example, Figure 4.3A shows the average ethnicity assignments for 200 customers with all four grandparents born in Germany. As you can see, while most of their assignment is to the Germanic Europe region, other regions do appear in small but significant amounts. These analyses help ensure that ethnicity estimates for people from a region agree with expectations.
    Sample size is bigger than in most competitors for Germans:
    Germanic Europe 2,095
    Precision and Recall is not very high, but still in the ok range:
    Germanic Europe 0.81 0.6
    This means they are most of the time right in assigning German, but they still miss a lot of and assign it otherwise, most likely both because of overlap and lack of sampling from some continental Germanic groups.

    Do you have a high percentage of 23andme's broadly northwestern europe?
    Yes, but its significantly lower. However, I also have a very high percentage of "Broadly European" there, if I would assign that completely to NW-Europe, the difference would be only slight, with the rest being explainable by minor admixtures 23andme recognises, but AncestryDNA doesn't. A certain portion of this is explainable,

    When you say "I don't post details" about your ethnicity estimates would you be willing to elaborate as to why that is, particularly when you're asking other people to post theirs?
    What I really looked and asked for is not necessarily private and connected data to a profile, but general German results. Rothaer showed exactly what I was looking for, anonymised data from proven German customers which show the whole range of the results, so everybody can compare and come to his own conclusions for how AncestryDNA works for Germans and what individual results mean. And I checked before and there was no topic about German customers on AncestryDNA.

    It might be also interesting to compare the Slavic neighbours, with which there was gene flow, marriages and migration. Like for Czechs from regions with a fairly high Germanic ancestral component.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    What I saw from my matches is that Eastern European is pretty stable, but that what 23andme assigns to broadly European or Balkan being more often assigned to Germanic Europe on AncestryDNA. I think that 23andme has a good sample for Central Czechs, with higher Slavic ancestry, or Poles being a good approximation, but an insufficient one for Western and Southern Czechs and Sudeten-German. Probably AncestryDNA has more individuals with ancestry from the Czech Republic in its Germanic Europe sample. Still its quite remarkable that the same ancestry from Central Europe being put into "Balkan" on 23andme and into "Germanic" on AncestryDNA. I think AncestryDNA is more correct on this, but of course, it might be an ancestry component shared by Central Europeans and some Balkan populations, by West and South Slavs, so probably there is no simple "right or wrong" for that kind of assignment, similar to the English : North West German case.
    The Germanic part varies a lot among Czechs, relative to East European and Baltic in particular, from 0 to more than 40 percent, largely depending on the region of origin. Balkan is significantly lower or absent on Ancestry relative to 23andme.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-18-2020 at 05:22 PM.

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  4. #43
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    Geebee's family in particular get a ton of the England category if I remember correctly, their German ancestry is more from the western German areas, I believe. Going on memory. Perhaps with the recent addition of many Scottish samples, some of that has changed to "Scotland" in the recent update.

    But, Riverman, I have to ask, at 85% of Ancestry's Germanic category, and as you said, a large percentage of the 23andme Broadly NW category (of which high percentages often correlate to Germanic ancestry, or at least, used to) are you from Germany yourself, or an American from a particularly German family background? I watched a very interesting documentary that discussed German heritage in America, talking about how it was the most common ethnic background among European descended Americans, and that some dialects of American German even exist. I thought that was incredibly interesting.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I watched a very interesting documentary that discussed German heritage in America, talking about how it was the most common ethnic background among European descended Americans, and that some dialects of American German even exist. I thought that was incredibly interesting.
    I'm not particularly "strongly German", with some of the more typically German-shifted individuals getting way more Scandinavian and English than I do. Which is part of the reason why I was asking. However, my German ancestry goes back, for the most part, to Western and South Western Germany originally, which seems to be the standard reference for this component on AncestryDNA.

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  8. #45
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    Wonder why German Americans score so high English results if the German people don't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    It's incredible how much northern Germany, England and Scandinavia even a bit of Scotland all blend into one almost monolithic North Sea group. It's almost impossible to separate them except for maybe the most Southern Germans or Eastern Germans.
    Maybe England. It's not one homogeneous group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Wonder why German Americans score so high English results if the German people don't?
    If you browse through the results posted by rothear, about 14 of 25 (= 56 %) of the German samples have significant "English" ancestry on AncestryDNA, many well above 15 percent, up to a third. What I did notice it that there is a tendency among those scoring high in generic continental Germanic/German having probably more often either have Scandinavian or English, which might point to this being somewhat interchangeable and absolutely not clearly to assign for some segments (Scandinavian<-> English <-> German).
    I don't think they use a different method for American customers.

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  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Wonder why German Americans score so high English results if the German people don't?
    Could be the location within Germany that Americans came from (more western Germany, on average) or some change within that population since such that the reference populations aren't as good. Or that many Americans are also part British Isles.

    Ancestry is currently great at separating out my German from British Isles (although my English ends up in various other British Isles results to a great extent). With my sister, however, it continues to end up in the British Isles results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm not particularly "strongly German", with some of the more typically German-shifted individuals getting way more Scandinavian and English than I do. Which is part of the reason why I was asking. However, my German ancestry goes back, for the most part, to Western and South Western Germany originally, which seems to be the standard reference for this component on AncestryDNA.
    So are you mixed German and other NW European, but getting much more German than you should? I think that's actually unusual on Ancestry, where from what I've seen the German often ends up in the E&NW Europe category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    So are you mixed German and other NW European, but getting much more German than you should? I think that's actually unusual on Ancestry, where from what I've seen the German often ends up in the E&NW Europe category.
    Scandinavian and English being for the most part interchangeable with German both on Ancestry and 23andme. On 23andme my German & French is half the total NW, but that's because my German source groups being underrepresented in the reference. So its not actually "wrong" that AncestryDNA gives me so much German, but they just assigned me "contested" segments to Germanic which other companies did assign otherwise. However, I'm not the only "continental Germanic" with these segments for sure, there are many other ethnic Germans, German speakers which have the same Balkan, Southern European and East European. So AncestryDNA just used a broader and larger reference which helps to assign much of the more mixed Southern Germanic people to that category. This must not mean recent admixture!

    I compared for Czechs in particular, and they too get more German and less Balkan, which too is reasonable, since they are mostly Slavic plus "German-like", rather than Balkan. But its really debatable what's more correct or better. If a German speaking group has for many centuries, probably even thousands of years some kind of Balkan, South or East European, how do you assign it? If you say somone with a paper trail to the 16th century has "recent Balkan & Greek" or "British & Irish" ancestry (like 23andme does), when that's not correct, but its just shared segments of older age, what do you think? I'm just an example for the general problem. But then again, English and Scandinavian doesn't count, its just part of the Germanic ancestry and Germans without known or likely admixture from Britain or the North should just add this to their "total German" and might view it as "more North German-like" rather than South German. That's all.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-19-2020 at 02:55 PM.

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