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Thread: A New Etymology Hypothesis for the Wilkinson (and variants) Surname

  1. #41
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    In Slavic this name will look like this : Vulkov (Вълков) or Vulchov (Вълчов)
    The root is a bit different.
    Looks closer to this one:
    https://names.neolove.ru/last_names/2/vi/vilkin.html
    Last edited by DgidguBidgu; 10-27-2020 at 12:28 AM.

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     jcmax68 (10-27-2020)

  3. #42
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    In 1983, Robin Warren and Barry Marshall isolated Helicobacter pylori as the cause of ulcers. Yet for decades physicians would not prescribe antibiotics for ulcer patients. Again, I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong, but in the absence of demonstrable period evidence to the contrary, which I would absolutely be pleased for someone to produce, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to just dismiss the evidence I have presented as outlandish. All of the pieces fit together without any particular strain on credulity that I can see. But again, I welcome critique with substantive evidence.

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    Based on what evidence?
    Your's obviously

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     rms2 (10-27-2020)

  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    My thesis doesn’t strike me as particularly complex. We have multiple known historical accounts that a Wend/Slav tribe had a name derived from the Slavonic word for wolf, which the sources attest was “wilk”. This word for wolf is still identifiable in the only remaining Polabia Slav language in Germany, Sorbian. Those same accounts attest that branches of that tribe settled and assimilated in the migration era to Frisia and Baltic Pomerania. These branches assimilated in Frisian and Danish cultures over the next few centuries. Frisians for sure and probably some Danes participated in the Anglo-Saxon colonization of Briton. Danes likewise colonized England as Vikings a few centuries later. Danish sagas and ballads record the use of the name Wilken. The saga uses a Latinate suffix that belies any claim the the root is “Wil”, it must be “wilk”. Multiple pre-Norman place names are recorded in disparate locations around Anglo-Saxon England. Clearly the use of “Wilk” as proper name root was in use before the Norman conquest. Similar place name evidence exists in Ireland in areas of Norse colonization. Against this multi-layered set of corroborating evidence, we have what? We have the traditional explanation that the name is formed by a post-Norman Germanic “Wil” + “kin” low Germanic diminutive conjunction although my research indicates this diminutive form didn’t occur until the 15th century). And the evidence for this is....? I have found no period example of this diminutive conjunction. If some can produce some I’ll be delighted. But as for now the only evidence is “this is what everybody says it is and has for some time now.” I would submit that my thesis has more demonstrable evidence than the standard thesis, but I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong.
    https://dmnes.wordpress.com/2015/12/...glish-element/
    https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2016/07/kin.html
    https://dmnes.wordpress.com/2015/12/...dieval-german/
    https://dmnes.wordpress.com/2017/04/...-cock-and-kin/

    It is a complicated thesis though, it may not seem as such to you, but it is. We know that several North Sea and Northern Germanic groups participated in the settlement of sub-Roman Britain. However there are quite a few sources which discuss the suffix -kin and its introduction into English via Flemish migrants. One of the earliest instances is a poem in 1190 by Nigel Wireker as discussed here

    There are several Continental examples as well (Wilken von Endorp comes to mind). One of your sources states that the Wilzi or Wilsi was the exonym in Eiginhard's language, while the the endonym was Welatibi. This was apparently related to weolot or variants meaning giant. How does that not conflict with the wilk (wolf) route proposed here? I must be missing something.

    We find the -kin suffix entering English via Flemish weavers/migrants in the 12th century and ceasing to exist in given names by the 15th century. We already know that England had connections to Flanders with both the Normans and the pre-1066 House of Godwin (Tostig spent time there as did some of his exiled nephews, IIRC his wife was Flemish). Then we have Flemish (and Dutch) arrivals with the Normans and for a few centuries after that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    In 1983, Robin Warren and Barry Marshall isolated Helicobacter pylori as the cause of ulcers. Yet for decades physicians would not prescribe antibiotics for ulcer patients. Again, I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong, but in the absence of demonstrable period evidence to the contrary, which I would absolutely be pleased for someone to produce, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to just dismiss the evidence I have presented as outlandish. All of the pieces fit together without any particular strain on credulity that I can see. But again, I welcome critique with substantive evidence.
    All of the pieces don't fit together though. You need to account for the explanations given by several scholars who have attributed -kin to Flemish introduction into the English language (and the clear link between William and Wilkin). Why are there references to Willekin (Wilkin) being a diminutive of William? Why are similar diminutive names for the same name attested in several languages in NW Europe? Why are Wilkin related names exempt from this suffix and the etymology attached to it compared to other surnames carrying this same suffix? Why does one of your own sources attest to a different origin (giant, as opposed to wolf) for the Wilsi/Wilzi exonym vs. Welatibi endonym?
    Last edited by spruithean; 10-27-2020 at 12:04 PM.

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     jcmax68 (10-27-2020)

  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    Based on what evidence?
    The burden of proof is on you. You are the one advancing a completely novel idea. Its absolute novelty is itself an argument against it.

    No one has advanced this Wilkinson story before, including no one with the surname Wilkinson.

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     jdean (10-27-2020)

  10. #46
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    Another fault with this novel derivation of the surname Wilkinson is the bass-ackwards methodology it applies.

    In search of sufficiently heroic forebears, we are directed back to the Migration Period and perhaps just before. There we hunt up a tribe with a name that begins with Wil. Eureka! Then we move forward, scanning the appropriate horizon for any subsequent names that could possibly resemble Wilkinson, however remotely.

    The sensible approach, however, is to begin with the present and work one's way back in time, from one established fact that can be supported to the next. The elaborate, mythological, and legendary explanation for the surname Wilkinson being put forward in this thread does nothing of the kind.

    I see no reason whatsoever to connect the Slavonic Wilczi with the surname Wilkinson, which could only have become established in Britain after about 1400. There's a Wil in both, that much is true, and where there's a Wil, there's a way, however circuitous and labored.

    But if the cz in Wilczi was pronounced anything like the way it is in modern Polish, then the resemblance to Wilkinson breaks down immediately. One is left to wonder about the possibility of a Wendish invasion of the area now known as Wiltshire, that is, until he comes to his senses, realizes the whole thing is preposterous on its face, and smacks himself in the forehead with the heel of his hand.
    Last edited by rms2; 10-27-2020 at 11:12 AM.

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     jdean (10-27-2020)

  12. #47
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    in disregard to the surname question
    the theory of the 'wilk-' seems more popular and elaborate
    http://www.ingeborgschmich.de/Nibelu...nen_Wilzen.pdf

    not sure how stable it all is though its prob. the same dubious root as why swedish monarchs style themselves 'kings' of the vandals and goths etc. the historical wendish/elbslavic 'Wieleten/Welataben' (in short 'Wilzen/Veleti') are a confederation of several lechitic speaking societies beyond the elbe; first rec. in 789 when Witzan assisted Charlemagne vs. the Saxons and inturn recieved Frankish aid against the 'Wilzen' of Dragowit; in 810 the 'Wilzen/Veketi' destroy the Frankish fortress, and bridgehead over the Elbe, Hobuoki by modern Gartow; in 943 the first bishoprics establish in the wendish/elbslavic lands starigard/oldenburg in wagrien and havelberg in the 'Veletean' ?settlement area(siedlungsgebiet) by the end of that century the societies known as 'Wilzen' restructure into what will be called the 'Lutici/Liutizi' (grand-revolt 983)

    the only interesting angle is Beda's 'Weletenburg' in what is todays Utrecht if this is indeed in connection to the wendish 'Wieleten/Welataben' or just a verballhornung remains unknown but it is an intr. coincidence
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    https://dmnes.wordpress.com/2015/12/...glish-element/
    https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2016/07/kin.html
    https://dmnes.wordpress.com/2015/12/...dieval-german/
    https://dmnes.wordpress.com/2017/04/...-cock-and-kin/

    It is a complicated thesis though, it may not seem as such to you, but it is. We know that several North Sea and Northern Germanic groups participated in the settlement of sub-Roman Britain. However there are quite a few sources which discuss the suffix -kin and its introduction into English via Flemish migrants. One of the earliest instances is a poem in 1190 by Nigel Wireker as discussed here

    There are several Continental examples as well (Wilken von Endorp comes to mind). One of your sources states that the Wilzi or Wilsi was the exonym in Eiginhard's language, while the the endonym was Welatibi. This was apparently related to weolot or variants meaning giant. How does that not conflict with the wilk (wolf) route proposed here? I must be missing something.

    We find the -kin suffix entering English via Flemish weavers/migrants in the 12th century and ceasing to exist in given names by the 15th century. We already know that England had connections to Flanders with both the Normans and the pre-1066 House of Godwin (Tostig spent time there as did some of his exiled nephews, IIRC his wife was Flemish). Then we have Flemish (and Dutch) arrivals with the Normans and for a few centuries after that.



    All of the pieces don't fit together though. You need to account for the explanations given by several scholars who have attributed -kin to Flemish introduction into the English language (and the clear link between William and Wilkin). Why are there references to Willekin (Wilkin) being a diminutive of William? Why are similar diminutive names for the same name attested in several languages in NW Europe? Why are Wilkin related names exempt from this suffix and the etymology attached to it compared to other surnames carrying this same suffix? Why does one of your own sources attest to a different origin (giant, as opposed to wolf) for the Wilsi/Wilzi exonym vs. Welatibi endonym?
    Good, now we are getting somewhere. I will check these out. I appreciate it.

  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    In Slavic this name will look like this : Vulkov (Вълков) or Vulchov (Вълчов)
    The root is a bit different.
    Looks closer to this one:
    https://names.neolove.ru/last_names/2/vi/vilkin.html
    The Sorbian remains 'wjelk" from what I have seen. I'll find the link source. Also, the "wilk" of the Wilzi would have been old Slavonic not modern Slavic. But I still see a phonetic similarity in the "Wilk" to "Vulk". Do you agree?

  15. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Another fault with this novel derivation of the surname Wilkinson is the bass-ackwards methodology it applies.

    In search of sufficiently heroic forebears, we are directed back to the Migration Period and perhaps just before. There we hunt up a tribe with a name that begins with Wil. Eureka! Then we move forward, scanning the appropriate horizon for any subsequent names that could possibly resemble Wilkinson, however remotely.

    The sensible approach, however, is to begin with the present and work one's way back in time, from one established fact that can be supported to the next. The elaborate, mythological, and legendary explanation for the surname Wilkinson being put forward in this thread does nothing of the kind.

    I see no reason whatsoever to connect the Slavonic Wilczi with the surname Wilkinson, which could only have become established in Britain after about 1400. There's a Wil in both, that much is true, and where there's a Wil, there's a way, however circuitous and labored.

    But if the cz in Wilczi was pronounced anything like the way it is in modern Polish, then the resemblance to Wilkinson breaks down immediately. One is left to wonder about the possibility of a Wendish invasion of the area now known as Wiltshire, that is, until he comes to his senses, realizes the whole thing is preposterous on its face, and smacks himself in the forehead with the heel of his hand.
    You keep attributing my claim to a "Wil" root. My contention is the root is "Wilk". This is supported in the 4x "Wilk" root proper place names in the Domesday book. There clearly was a pre-Norman use of this root in England.

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