Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 96

Thread: A New Etymology Hypothesis for the Wilkinson (and variants) Surname

  1. #51
    Registered Users
    Posts
    139
    Sex
    Location
    West Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L20>FT20578

    United States of America Ireland Scotland Denmark
    @ Spruthean re "Wilt is also found in placenames, often denoting willow trees in the area. There are reasonable Old English and Old Norse etymologies for these personal names in England at this time, no? I can't speak for some of those Wilk- placenames, but a few of them have known etymologies, example: Wilksby meaning "farmstead of Vilgeirr/Vilgerth".

    Harrison's surname treatise lists no use of Vilgeirr/Vilgerth as either tenant in chief, nor a as an undertenant in the Domesday book.

  2. #52
    Registered Users
    Posts
    139
    Sex
    Location
    West Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L20>FT20578

    United States of America Ireland Scotland Denmark
    But I'll word search the Domesday itself to confirm.

  3. #53
    Registered Users
    Posts
    139
    Sex
    Location
    West Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L20>FT20578

    United States of America Ireland Scotland Denmark
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The burden of proof is on you. You are the one advancing a completely novel idea. Its absolute novelty is itself an argument against it.

    No one has advanced this Wilkinson story before, including no one with the surname Wilkinson.
    For a long time, a claim to a Norman pedigree would have been favorable, why would anyone have? I just want to make clear, I did not set out to re-write the etymology of my surname. I had always operated under the same presumptions you do. I thought what I found in research ancillary to my genealogical research was interesting enough, and supported in actual period records and prior scholarship enough to put it forward. If ethno-linguists can demonstrate it is invalid, so be it. But its going to require more than simply pointing to the standard surnaming treatises and saying this is what they've always said it is. I am aware that is the case, that's why I complied this other material into a book. Now Spruthean has put forward some links for me to look at and i will gladly do so.

  4. #54
    Registered Users
    Posts
    139
    Sex
    Location
    West Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L20>FT20578

    United States of America Ireland Scotland Denmark
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post

    However there are quite a few sources which discuss the suffix -kin and its introduction into English via Flemish migrants. One of the earliest instances is a poem in 1190 by Nigel Wireker as discussed here

    ….One of your sources states that the Wilzi or Wilsi was the exonym in Eiginhard's language, while the the endonym was Welatibi. This was apparently related to weolot or variants meaning giant. How does that not conflict with the wilk (wolf) route proposed here? I must be missing something.

    We find the -kin suffix entering English via Flemish weavers/migrants in the 12th century and ceasing to exist in given names by the 15th century. We already know that England had connections to Flanders with both the Normans and the pre-1066 House of Godwin (Tostig spent time there as did some of his exiled nephews, IIRC his wife was Flemish). Then we have Flemish (and Dutch) arrivals with the Normans and for a few centuries after that.


    All of the pieces don't fit together though. You need to account for the explanations given by several scholars who have attributed -kin to Flemish introduction into the English language (and the clear link between William and Wilkin). Why are there references to Willekin (Wilkin) being a diminutive of William? Why are similar diminutive names for the same name attested in several languages in NW Europe? Why are Wilkin related names exempt from this suffix and the etymology attached to it compared to other surnames carrying this same suffix? Why does one of your own sources attest to a different origin (giant, as opposed to wolf) for the Wilsi/Wilzi exonym vs. Welatibi endonym?
    The Wireker poem is consistent with the Flemish source of the son of the vassal of John d' Courcy in Ireland around 1200. I do not dispute that Flemish variants of the name existed, nor that they came in with the Normans. However, that explanation doesn't account for the "wilk" root place names in Domesday. Flanders is also not terribly far from Utrecht. It does not seem hard to envision that some of the Wilzi who migrated to the vicinity of Utrecht in the 5th and 6th centuries would have residual percolations by the 11th.

    There was another Wilkin in the Four Masters in Limerick. He's usually associated with the Norman Burke>MacWilliam family, but I could find no evidence to support that claim. At least one scholar holds that this location is not associated in name with Clanwilliam until AD 1466, noting that the association comes from the Burkes (de Burgh) who held it from AD 1201. See Westropp, “Ancient Castles of County Limerick,” Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy, vol. 26, 83 (1906–1907). If the de Burghs did not possess the castle until AD 1201, this cannot explain the Uilcin in the Four Masters account, because that incident occurred a year earlier. Limerick was Norse-Gael when the Normans arrived. There is solid evidence that the original Norse-Gaels of Limerick were on friendly terms with the Anglo-Normans. Limerick already had established commerce with Rouen in Normandy, and the first mayor of Limerick after King John’s 1197 charter was not an Anglo-Norman but rather a native Hiberno-Norse local named Syward. See Moody et al, A New History of Ireland 1169–1534, vol. 2 (2008), 109–30. See also Roche, The Norman Invasion of Ireland (1970), 259. For this reason, I think its more likely this Wilkin (or Uilcin) was also a Norse-Gael. Though I admit I cannot prove this one way or another (though so far as I can tell, neither can the opposite).

    With regard to Wilte/Welatabi/Wilzi, I agree that that the ancient and medieval sources list a variety of tribal appellations. The name o the tribe is of less import that their word for wolf, which every commentary I have seen lists as "wilk". Nearly all the Polabian Slavic languages have been lost due to Germanization over the centuries. As previously mentioned, one notable exception exists—that of the (lower) Sorbian language, which is still spoken today in Baltic eastern Germany. The Sorbian word for wolf remains “Wjelk.” https://europeminoritylanguages.word...upper-sorbian/ . I admit that I rely on the prior accounts of Bede and Alfred the Great and scholarship about them for the references regarding "Wilk" as the Wylte/Wilzi word for wolf. But I know of no modern scholarship that has invalidated these accounts. Shore's treatise on the origin of the Anglo-Saxons remains a solid reference and he clearly recognizes the assimilation of Slavic tribes in both Frisia and the Baltic. Shore, Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race (1906 ed.), 89, 93. Shore also supports the notion that a folkloric identity could have existed and endured. That may seem to be wishful thinking, but the importance and endurance of custom and folklore, particularly among the Wends and Wylte/Weleti is repeatedly noted in Shore’s treatise on the Anglo-Saxon origins. Shore notes that “local traces of Wendish settlers in various English counties … are customs and folk-lore, which were of great vitality among the people of Wendland.” Particularly interesting is Shore’s noting that so many of the mythological and legendary remnants that have survived, in Wessex and Cornwall in particular, have parallel analogs in the Baltic southern coast areas of Rugen and Pomerania, arguably the heart, or very near to it, of the Wylte/Weleti tribal areas. Shore, Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race (1906 ed.), 102, 239–41, 363–66. Given the unquestionable prevalence of the use of Ulf and Wulf as given names by Norse, Aglo-Saxons and Germans (this I trust you'll agree is indisputable), it does not strike me as particularly far fetched to suppose that assimilated Slavs, especially ones from a tribe multiple historical accounts took their name from their word for "wolf" would have similar naming conventions. Nor that such given names would remain in circulation after assimilation even after their original linguistic meaning was lost. And we know that patronymics were the convention for centuries among the Anglo-Saxons and Norse.

    Can I prove that this happened beyond all doubt? Of course not, that's why its a hypothesis. But what fragments exists, I think are entirely consistent with my proposition. I will continue to look through what you have linked. If you prove me wrong, so be it.

  5. #55
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    13,263
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    For a long time, a claim to a Norman pedigree would have been favorable, why would anyone have? I just want to make clear, I did not set out to re-write the etymology of my surname. I had always operated under the same presumptions you do. I thought what I found in research ancillary to my genealogical research was interesting enough, and supported in actual period records and prior scholarship enough to put it forward. If ethno-linguists can demonstrate it is invalid, so be it. But its going to require more than simply pointing to the standard surnaming treatises and saying this is what they've always said it is. I am aware that is the case, that's why I complied this other material into a book. Now Spruthean has put forward some links for me to look at and i will gladly do so.
    Pardon me, but it seems to me you created this out of whole cloth. It is completely novel. No one has ever suggested it before.

    As I said before, its very novelty is a strong argument against it, since pretty obviously it is not something that was handed down within the Wilkinson family.

    "Ethno-linguists" aren't generally looked to for something as mundane as a modern family surname. As I said before, surnames did not come into general use in Britain until after 1400.

    Whatever it really is, your novel derivation of the surname Wilkinson has the look of a creative hunt for an heroic origin story of mythic proportions, in which, as they often do, the glorious Vikings loom large.

    "Son of Wilkin" just didn't measure up.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     jdean (10-27-2020)

  7. #56
    Registered Users
    Posts
    139
    Sex
    Location
    West Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L20>FT20578

    United States of America Ireland Scotland Denmark
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Pardon me, but it seems to me you created this out of whole cloth. It is completely novel. No one has ever suggested it before.

    As I said before, its very novelty is a strong argument against it, since pretty obviously it is not something that was handed down within the Wilkinson family.

    "Ethno-linguists" aren't generally looked to for something as mundane as a modern family surname. As I said before, surnames did not come into general use in Britain until after 1400.

    Whatever it really is, your novel derivation of the surname Wilkinson has the look of a creative hunt for an heroic origin story of mythic proportions, in which, as they often do, the glorious Vikings loom large.

    "Son of Wilkin" just didn't measure up.
    I made up Bede? Alfred the Great? Venatius Fortunatus? The Bavarian Geographer? Einhard? Shore? All of these are the sources that account for Wilzi assimilation into Frisia and Baltic. I can't help that that is also where the Vikings launched from (at least the latter, though they also colonized part of Frisia for a few decades in the 800s). Up until 2019 I figured I was some stripe of Belgaic Celt. Maybe I am. But my Y line matching in Hebrides and Denmark, and Margaryan's findings made me re-assess my prior assumptions (and I was perfectly happy being a Gaul). I didn't even have to hunt for these things, I just found them along the way during other research. If you lay them all out, I think there is an entirely plausible pattern. Whether it can be proven? Not in a quantitative way, but then very little of ethno-linguistics, anthropology and history is cleanly quantitative. I do think its worth looking into. If you feel its dismissable without looking at the total account, that is your prerogative. I'm certainly not saying people have to believe that I have 100% of the truth (nor do I make such a claim). I also don't think both etymologies are necessarily mutually exclusive.

  8. #57
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    13,263
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    I made up Bede? Alfred the Great? Venatius Fortunatus? The Bavarian Geographer? Einhard? Shore? . . .
    Right, and they all agreed with you that the surname Wilkinson derives from the Slavonic Wendish Wilczi, who migrated to the Netherlands, became Frisians, etc., etc.

    Come on. No one said anything about you making up Bede, Alfred, and so on. What silliness.

    But you did absolutely make up entirely out of whole cloth this completely novel, never-been-seen-before origin story for the surname Wilkinson.

    Margaryan's findings have nothing to do with the origin of the Wilkinson surname.

    For one thing, I've already told you that the Wilkinson line in my own pedigree is R1b-DF85. If yours is some kind of R1b-L20, that makes at least two different y-chromosome lines with the surname Wilkinson. I'll bet there are several others, as well. We'd know more if the admin of the Wilkinson DNA Project wasn't a privacy maniac.

    Who but someone with a fevered brain would look at Margaryan and think, "Oh, my goodness! The Wilkinsons must have been Vikings!"?

  9. #58
    Registered Users
    Posts
    593
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland England Scotland Isle of Man
    Even if you were right about the name "Wilk" coming into use following the migration of the Wilzi into north western Europe (which I also doubt), you aren't addressing the main problem that Rich has raised a number of times now: Surnames solidified in the 15th century. There is no real chance that someone with the surname Wilkinson came by their name through ancient descent from the Wilzi.

    Let me give you a different example to clarify. You will often run into people with the name Emrys in Wales. Emrys is the Welsh form of Ambrosius and originally became popular because of the place Ambrosius Aurelianus (Emrys Wledig) had within old Welsh historiography. Many Welsh men had the given name Emrys. Eventually their children took their fathers' first names as surnames. Put starkly, no one with the name Emrys acquired it through descent from the original Ambrosius. There were a thousand years between Ambrosius the man and the adoption of Emrys as a surname.

    You see the parallel, I hope. Wilkinson has an established etymology. Even if you were right in saying that the name arose in some instances because it hearkened back to the Wilzi, the surname itself couldn't have any direct, hereditary relationship to that ancient people.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to David Mc For This Useful Post:

     FionnSneachta (10-28-2020),  jdean (10-27-2020),  rms2 (10-27-2020),  spruithean (10-27-2020)

  11. #59
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,610
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Cornwall Ireland France
    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    @ Spruthean re "Wilt is also found in placenames, often denoting willow trees in the area. There are reasonable Old English and Old Norse etymologies for these personal names in England at this time, no? I can't speak for some of those Wilk- placenames, but a few of them have known etymologies, example: Wilksby meaning "farmstead of Vilgeirr/Vilgerth".

    Harrison's surname treatise lists no use of Vilgeirr/Vilgerth as either tenant in chief, nor a as an undertenant in the Domesday book.
    He need not be present at the time that the Domesday book was recorded. The placename could have formed a few generations prior.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    The Wireker poem is consistent with the Flemish source of the son of the vassal of John d' Courcy in Ireland around 1200. I do not dispute that Flemish variants of the name existed, nor that they came in with the Normans. However, that explanation doesn't account for the "wilk" root place names in Domesday. Flanders is also not terribly far from Utrecht. It does not seem hard to envision that some of the Wilzi who migrated to the vicinity of Utrecht in the 5th and 6th centuries would have residual percolations by the 11th.

    There was another Wilkin in the Four Masters in Limerick. He's usually associated with the Norman Burke>MacWilliam family, but I could find no evidence to support that claim. At least one scholar holds that this location is not associated in name with Clanwilliam until AD 1466, noting that the association comes from the Burkes (de Burgh) who held it from AD 1201. See Westropp, “Ancient Castles of County Limerick,” Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy, vol. 26, 83 (1906–1907). If the de Burghs did not possess the castle until AD 1201, this cannot explain the Uilcin in the Four Masters account, because that incident occurred a year earlier. Limerick was Norse-Gael when the Normans arrived. There is solid evidence that the original Norse-Gaels of Limerick were on friendly terms with the Anglo-Normans. Limerick already had established commerce with Rouen in Normandy, and the first mayor of Limerick after King John’s 1197 charter was not an Anglo-Norman but rather a native Hiberno-Norse local named Syward. See Moody et al, A New History of Ireland 1169–1534, vol. 2 (2008), 109–30. See also Roche, The Norman Invasion of Ireland (1970), 259. For this reason, I think its more likely this Wilkin (or Uilcin) was also a Norse-Gael. Though I admit I cannot prove this one way or another (though so far as I can tell, neither can the opposite).
    Placenames containing Wilk, especially in Domesday already have explanations, likely after Norsemen with names that over time were reduced to something much easier to pronounce in Old and Middle English. Weren't the Clann Uilcín connected to the Stauntons if they are associated with the the Burkes? Dubhaltach MacFirbisigh recorded this lineage in the 17th century: Uilliam coach (ie. ‘the blind’) son of Eamonn son of Hoibeard son of Gearóid son of Bearnard son of Uilcín son of Niocag Sdondón. If this is the same Uilcín in question it appears he was Anglo-Norman?


    With regard to Wilte/Welatabi/Wilzi, I agree that that the ancient and medieval sources list a variety of tribal appellations. The name o the tribe is of less import that their word for wolf, which every commentary I have seen lists as "wilk". Nearly all the Polabian Slavic languages have been lost due to Germanization over the centuries. As previously mentioned, one notable exception exists—that of the (lower) Sorbian language, which is still spoken today in Baltic eastern Germany. The Sorbian word for wolf remains “Wjelk.” https://europeminoritylanguages.word...upper-sorbian/ . I admit that I rely on the prior accounts of Bede and Alfred the Great and scholarship about them for the references regarding "Wilk" as the Wylte/Wilzi word for wolf. But I know of no modern scholarship that has invalidated these accounts. Shore's treatise on the origin of the Anglo-Saxons remains a solid reference and he clearly recognizes the assimilation of Slavic tribes in both Frisia and the Baltic. Shore, Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race (1906 ed.), 89, 93. Shore also supports the notion that a folkloric identity could have existed and endured. That may seem to be wishful thinking, but the importance and endurance of custom and folklore, particularly among the Wends and Wylte/Weleti is repeatedly noted in Shore’s treatise on the Anglo-Saxon origins. Shore notes that “local traces of Wendish settlers in various English counties … are customs and folk-lore, which were of great vitality among the people of Wendland.” Particularly interesting is Shore’s noting that so many of the mythological and legendary remnants that have survived, in Wessex and Cornwall in particular, have parallel analogs in the Baltic southern coast areas of Rugen and Pomerania, arguably the heart, or very near to it, of the Wylte/Weleti tribal areas. Shore, Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race (1906 ed.), 102, 239–41, 363–66. Given the unquestionable prevalence of the use of Ulf and Wulf as given names by Norse, Aglo-Saxons and Germans (this I trust you'll agree is indisputable), it does not strike me as particularly far fetched to suppose that assimilated Slavs, especially ones from a tribe multiple historical accounts took their name from their word for "wolf" would have similar naming conventions. Nor that such given names would remain in circulation after assimilation even after their original linguistic meaning was lost. And we know that patronymics were the convention for centuries among the Anglo-Saxons and Norse.

    Can I prove that this happened beyond all doubt? Of course not, that's why its a hypothesis. But what fragments exists, I think are entirely consistent with my proposition. I will continue to look through what you have linked. If you prove me wrong, so be it.
    The issue with it is the the etymology you are using for the "wilk" name is wolf, but the tribe who had this name "Wilzi" as their exonym referred to themselves as Welatibi? With their own endonym having something to do with "a giant"? I'm confused here. I don't see how they went from Welatibi > Wilczi > > Wylte > Wilk > Wilkin > etc. That's moving across several languages. What is your explanation for this? Is there an attempt at the connection of Wylte to Wilt seen in Wilton and Wiltshire? That doesn't work either because we know that Wiltshire (Wiltunscir) gets its name from Wilton (which comes from the Old English form for town by or with willow trees, or something to that effect).

    I don't dispute the use of Ulf/Wulf in Germanic languages (Wulfstan, Wulfric, etc) but then I also have to ask why did these Wendish settlers in Britain not eventually just refer to themselves as Wolfson? Would they have not eventually adopted the local languages overtime? You are implying that a surname which likely arose sometime around the 15th century maintained this patrilineal link to an obscure tribe of antiquity. These surnames are patronymic and before permanent surnames were subject to a lot of change and complete erasure.


    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    I made up Bede? Alfred the Great? Venatius Fortunatus? The Bavarian Geographer? Einhard? Shore? All of these are the sources that account for Wilzi assimilation into Frisia and Baltic. I can't help that that is also where the Vikings launched from (at least the latter, though they also colonized part of Frisia for a few decades in the 800s). Up until 2019 I figured I was some stripe of Belgaic Celt. Maybe I am. But my Y line matching in Hebrides and Denmark, and Margaryan's findings made me re-assess my prior assumptions (and I was perfectly happy being a Gaul). I didn't even have to hunt for these things, I just found them along the way during other research. If you lay them all out, I think there is an entirely plausible pattern. Whether it can be proven? Not in a quantitative way, but then very little of ethno-linguistics, anthropology and history is cleanly quantitative. I do think its worth looking into. If you feel its dismissable without looking at the total account, that is your prerogative. I'm certainly not saying people have to believe that I have 100% of the truth (nor do I make such a claim). I also don't think both etymologies are necessarily mutually exclusive.
    No one is saying you made up those medieval scholars and the more modern ones. But you are attempting to make a massive link between a patronymic surname of the 15th century to a tribe of antiquity with an unbroken connection for generations (I have a hard time finding support for this). Your matches in the Hebrides and Denmark is not indicative of anything really. The Hebrides still had a Gaelic population despite the Norse settlements, and we know that the Vikings were ferrying slaves around the sea-road, is it also not possible that your Danish matches are the result of Hebridean Gaels being brought to Denmark via the sea road as slaves? What about later migrants into Scandinavia via Scottish mercenaries during various European wars? There are so many variables here and possible routes that could explain your matches.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     FionnSneachta (10-28-2020)

  13. #60
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    13,263
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    This stuff is incredible, in the original sense of that word.

    It's amazing, but also laudable, that some of you are willing to address it in detail, kind of like engaging a homeless man about why he wears a tinfoil hat.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     jdean (10-27-2020),  JoeyP37 (10-28-2020)

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Early U106: A Hypothesis
    By Wing Genealogist in forum R1b-U106
    Replies: 119
    Last Post: 08-25-2020, 10:50 AM
  2. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 02-10-2020, 05:32 PM
  3. Looking to Find Surname RENDULIĆ Surname Project
    By mjrendu1982 in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-24-2019, 01:21 AM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-18-2018, 12:43 AM
  5. Etymology/Origin of "Europe"?
    By Humanist in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-05-2014, 10:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •