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Thread: U5b1d1b

  1. #1
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    U5b1d1b

    Italy Italy Trentino Alto Adige Ireland Connacht

    U5b1d1b

    Hello everyone,

    I am interested in hearing more from users who have, or, alternatively, who are more knowledgeable, about my mtDNA haplogroup: U5b1d1b.

    One thing I am particularly curious about is the origin of my lineage. Eupedia.com states that 'U5b1d1b is found in Italy and Siberia' and that U5b is most commonly found in northern Spain.

    My family history does not exactly correlate with the first half of the information from Eupedia.com: my maternal grandmother's side is Irish (from Connacht), not Italy and/or Siberia.

    However, my family history does potentially align with U5b more generally (as there is compelling evidence that humans migrated from Northern Spain to Ireland Ireland about 8,000 years ago).

    For those interested, my RSRS values are as follows:

    Extra Mutations 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C 8278.1C 8278.2C 8278.3C C13947T A16037G C16218T C16519T
    Missing Mutations C16192T

    Again, any insight from either users with my haplogroup lineage, or from users who are more knowledgeable about the subject in general, would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you!

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to shearsofatropos For This Useful Post:

     Rufus191 (04-16-2021)

  3. #2
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    K1a10a

    United States of America England
    Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.

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  5. #3
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    K1a10a

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    Eight modern cases of U5b1d1b including two Irish cases can be seen at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...rame=mtresults. Set page size to 9999 to see all the cases. I always have to repeat the page size 9999 action to get it to work.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to J1 DYS388=13 For This Useful Post:

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  7. #4
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    U5b1d1b

    Italy Italy Trentino Alto Adige Ireland Connacht
    Quote Originally Posted by J1 DYS388=13 View Post
    Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.
    Thank you so much for all of your help. I also especially want to thank you for the PhD thesis source - I will be checking Google Scholar to see if I can find it ASAP. Additionally, per your other reply: I struggled with the search analytics on FamilyTree, so your tip (repeating the page size 9999 action) is very useful to me. Thank you again!

  8. #5
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    U5a2a1

    I'm a volunteer admin for the U5 project and I just placed you in U5b1d1b* Group 1a. As J1 mentioned, this group includes several people from Ireland and England. The Russian and Italian samples are sister clades that are very distantly related, so probably not relevant. Based on the ancient samples in Germany, it seems likely that U5b1d1 originated in Mesolithic Europe and that its daughter clades spread from there. Your extra HVR1 mutation A16037G is unique among the project members, so I would also recommend checking your HVR1 match list. Any HVR1 matches are likely to be very close matches in the full sequence and more recently related to you than other members of Group 1a.

  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to GailT For This Useful Post:

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  10. #6
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    U5b1d1b

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    Thank you GailT! Apologies for the delayed reply. Interesting to see that my A16037G mutation is unique! Does this mean it is rather new, too? I have read in academic literature that there is a Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry-I wonder if this is connected at all. Thank you again for your help!

  11. #7
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    U5b1d1b

    Italy Italy Trentino Alto Adige Ireland Connacht
    Thank you GailT! Apologies for the delayed reply. Interesting to see that my A16037G mutation is unique! Does this mean it is rather new, too? I have read in academic literature that there is a Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry-I wonder if this is connected at all. Thank you again for your help!

  12. #8
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    U5a2a1

    Yes, relatively recent, but given the slow mutation rate for mtDNA, "recent" could be between approximately 1 to 40 generations ago. I don't know about a possible "Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry" - there is a lot of speculation out there, so I would verify if it is from a reliable source, but in any case, that would be more relevant to autosomal DNA. Your mtDNA represents only your direct maternal lineage, and the maternal line contributes a very small portion of your autosomal DNA if you go back many generations. So the mtDNA results only tell you that your maternal line originated in Mesolithic European hunter gatherers.

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  14. #9
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    U5b1d1b

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    Understood. I got the Caucasus-related component data from an academic article (citation and link is below). Dr. Lara Cassidy has done a lot of work on Neolithic and Bronze Age genetics in Ireland. A quote from the article, as it is also relevant to the U haplogroup:

    The Bronze Age [male] individuals belonged to the haplogroups U5 and J2b. Notably, the three Bronze Age males each belong to the Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a2a1a2c (SI Appendix, Section S8). This lineage is characterized by a modern east–west frequency gradient in the British Isles, and is almost fixed (94%) in the West of Ireland (19, 20). R1b haplotypes have been argued as first appearing with steppe incursion in the central European Bronze Age (9).

    Thank you for all of your insight and your patience!

    Neolithic and Bronze Age ancient Irish genomes
    Lara M. Cassidy, Rui Martiniano, Eileen M. Murphy, Matthew D. Teasdale, James Mallory, Barrie Hartwell, Daniel G. Bradley
    Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Jan 2016, 113 (2) 368-373; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1518445113
    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by J1 DYS388=13 View Post
    Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.
    I don't know whether you know, but Cheddar Man, a mesolithic hunter gatherer found in a south west England cave was found to be U5b1 from recent Natural History Museum Research. Older outdated methods erroneously attributed him to the U5a group.

    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/ou...r-man-faq.html

    My own line is U5b1d and traces not too far from Cheddar, to the Dorset-Hampshire border in the 18th c. However, Dr. Tom Booth says it looks like Cheddar Man and his close relatives were either wiped out, outbred or outnumbered by the incoming Neolithic farmers as they were completely different autosomely. However it stills seems possible some mesolithic women were taken by these incoming peoples and his maternal line survived.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5hZBvD7sbU


    https://youtu.be/h5hZBvD7sbU?t=1750 comment where Dr. Booth states there wasn't much mixing of the Neolithic farmers and the mesolithic peoples in Britain, but there was some , most in western Scotland
    Last edited by Rufus191; 04-16-2021 at 04:41 PM.

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