U5b1d1b

[shearsofatropos]

Hello everyone,

I am interested in hearing more from users who have, or, alternatively, who are more knowledgeable, about my mtDNA haplogroup: U5b1d1b.

One thing I am particularly curious about is the origin of my lineage. Eupedia.com states that 'U5b1d1b is found in Italy and Siberia' and that U5b is most commonly found in northern Spain.

My family history does not exactly correlate with the first half of the information from Eupedia.com: my maternal grandmother's side is Irish (from Connacht), not Italy and/or Siberia.

However, my family history does potentially align with U5b more generally (as there is compelling evidence that humans migrated from Northern Spain to Ireland Ireland about 8,000 years ago).

For those interested, my RSRS values are as follows:

Extra Mutations 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C 8278.1C 8278.2C 8278.3C C13947T A16037G C16218T C16519T
Missing Mutations C16192T

Again, any insight from either users with my haplogroup lineage, or from users who are more knowledgeable about the subject in general, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

[J1 DYS388=13]

Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.

[J1 DYS388=13]

Eight modern cases of U5b1d1b including two Irish cases can be seen at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...rame=mtresults. Set page size to 9999 to see all the cases. I always have to repeat the page size 9999 action to get it to work.

[shearsofatropos]

Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.

Thank you so much for all of your help. I also especially want to thank you for the PhD thesis source - I will be checking Google Scholar to see if I can find it ASAP. Additionally, per your other reply: I struggled with the search analytics on FamilyTree, so your tip (repeating the page size 9999 action) is very useful to me. Thank you again!

[GailT]

I'm a volunteer admin for the U5 project and I just placed you in U5b1d1b* Group 1a. As J1 mentioned, this group includes several people from Ireland and England. The Russian and Italian samples are sister clades that are very distantly related, so probably not relevant. Based on the ancient samples in Germany, it seems likely that U5b1d1 originated in Mesolithic Europe and that its daughter clades spread from there. Your extra HVR1 mutation A16037G is unique among the project members, so I would also recommend checking your HVR1 match list. Any HVR1 matches are likely to be very close matches in the full sequence and more recently related to you than other members of Group 1a.

[shearsofatropos]

Thank you GailT! Apologies for the delayed reply. Interesting to see that my A16037G mutation is unique! Does this mean it is rather new, too? I have read in academic literature that there is a Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry-I wonder if this is connected at all. Thank you again for your help!

[shearsofatropos]

Thank you GailT! Apologies for the delayed reply. Interesting to see that my A16037G mutation is unique! Does this mean it is rather new, too? I have read in academic literature that there is a Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry-I wonder if this is connected at all. Thank you again for your help!

[GailT]

Yes, relatively recent, but given the slow mutation rate for mtDNA, "recent" could be between approximately 1 to 40 generations ago. I don't know about a possible "Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry" - there is a lot of speculation out there, so I would verify if it is from a reliable source, but in any case, that would be more relevant to autosomal DNA. Your mtDNA represents only your direct maternal lineage, and the maternal line contributes a very small portion of your autosomal DNA if you go back many generations. So the mtDNA results only tell you that your maternal line originated in Mesolithic European hunter gatherers.

[shearsofatropos]

Understood. I got the Caucasus-related component data from an academic article (citation and link is below). Dr. Lara Cassidy has done a lot of work on Neolithic and Bronze Age genetics in Ireland. A quote from the article, as it is also relevant to the U haplogroup:

The Bronze Age [male] individuals belonged to the haplogroups U5 and J2b. Notably, the three Bronze Age males each belong to the Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a2a1a2c (SI Appendix, Section S8). This lineage is characterized by a modern east–west frequency gradient in the British Isles, and is almost fixed (94%) in the West of Ireland (19, 20). R1b haplotypes have been argued as first appearing with steppe incursion in the central European Bronze Age (9).

Thank you for all of your insight and your patience!

Neolithic and Bronze Age ancient Irish genomes
Lara M. Cassidy, Rui Martiniano, Eileen M. Murphy, Matthew D. Teasdale, James Mallory, Barrie Hartwell, Daniel G. Bradley
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Jan 2016, 113 (2) 368-373; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1518445113
https://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368