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Thread: New L513 aDNA finds in Ireland

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    New L513 aDNA finds in Ireland

    Hi Guys,

    Over in the European/Western forum there's a thread that discusses the Irish DNA atlas results. Recently they were posting about the Lara Cassidy thesis that was finally made public back in May. Apparently there are at least 2 aDNA finds in Munster that are L513!! Seems like huge news for us, I was surprised I hadn't heard about it before. Has anyone got any more information?

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    I donít have more information but I have heard about this. There is also a native branch in Fermanagh.

    http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/genealogy/L513D2/D2_summary2.html
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 10-20-2020 at 06:11 AM.

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    Seems both the finds in Munster were R1b-CTS3087, but found 140km apart (one in Kerry, one in Cork). That is pretty massive. That means that related guys, of the same family/kin group, were widespread in the Munster Province. Seems to have been dated to around 400-600 AD.

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    Sample 1 - Courtmacsherry, Cork - Dated 540-662 AD - Lintel Grave - L21/S145 > DF13 > L513/S215/DF1 > S6365 > Z16361 > CTS750+

    Sample 2 - Ballybunnion, Kerry - Dated 583-674 AD - Lintel Grave - L21/S145 > DF13 > L513/S215/DF1 > S6365 > Z16361 > CTS750+

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    So where did these lines originate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    So where did these lines originate?
    There are big groups of L513 with Munster connections in the genealogical timeframe - the main Kerry group of O'Shea, for example; a significant group of O'Donoghues, some McCarthys, and others. The fact that these two ancient remains share exactly the same downstream SNP's, but were found 140km apart, proves that this kinship group, whatever/whoever it represents, was quite widespread in the Kingdom of Munster in early medieval times.

    I posted elsewhere on the significance of the locations: both places are right on the coast. Seems a lot of L513, wherever it's found, is coastal. It's also been found in 2 remains as part of the Viking World study - one in Dorset, one in the Faroes. There's a theory that the L513 line came from the ancient Menapii tribe of Gaul, perhaps coming to Ireland and Scotland at the same time. Perhaps these guys were indeed expert seafarers. I've often thought that the Gall Gaidheal of Galloway in SW Scotland might be a good bet for the L513 found down there - coastal, again, with links to further up the western Scottish coast (Argyll/Hebrides etc.).

    This of course is all speculation so far, but it's great to get some more aDNA that will help us piece together the jigsaw.

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    So you think that these are ancient SW Scotland? So where is the native L513 in Ulster?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    So you think that these are ancient SW Scotland? So where is the native L513 in Ulster?
    I don't necessarily think that the aDNA L513 that has been found in Munster originated in SW Scotland. They belong to a downstream SNP that seems to have more representation in Ireland today. It's all speculation, but so far I think it probably went something like this:

    - L21 was present in the Bell Beaker folks who migrated west through Europe. At some stage the L513 SNP evolved among them.

    - L513 folks were part of a major wave into Britain and Ireland (I believe these folks probably mostly settled in Ireland and Scotland, but that is based on the present day frequency, and limited testing rates of course).

    - L513, along with other L21 clades (e.g. DF49, DF21 and the rest) were successful in Britain and Ireland, developing the many sub-branches we see today. As part of this branching, L513 grew many well-populated branches in Ireland and Scotland (and maybe elsewhere) simultaneously. So for example it looks like L193 was developing in Scotland at the same time as the Irish branches were developing in Ireland. That's not to say that L513 folks did not travel between the islands - of course they did, but there seem to be well established L513 clades that are very frequent in one particular area (like L193 in Scotland).

    So I guess the questions that interest me are:

    1. Who were the main L513 guys when they arrived in the isles? Some say Menapii, from Gaul. I simply don't know.
    2. Which kinship/clan groups in the isles are represented by the various subclades of L513? I know that the big Maguire grouping with Ulster roots looks like it is majority L513. L193 looks Scottish, and seems to be spread all over (possibly with more frequency in the west, like most of L21). For the longest time I'Ve been wondering whether the L193 guys were mostly Picts, Gaels, Ancient Britons or what else. I suspect that L193 was found in several, if not all, of these groups. My 'pet theory' is that L193 in the SW of Scotland might be connected to the Gall Gaidheal - I base this on the general maritime frequency of L513, as well as the western frequency of L193 in Scotland and the link between the Hebrides and Galloway/Ayrshire, which was the homeland of the Gall Gaidheal in the early medieval period.

    I welcome disagreement with any of the above, and of course debate of the points raised!
    Last edited by Jon; 10-28-2020 at 04:15 PM.

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    One has to tread very very carefully when making assumptions on the lines of L21, it is not simple that's for sure and looking at results from todays modern population's NGS test results can be very very misleading.

    Here is an example of what I mean

    These are the lines we have in the Fitzpatrick DNA project. They are not lines that end in a singular Fitzpatrick man, those men are not on this chart. The lines either have SNP branching or STR branches of more than 3 men with TRMCA's calculated before 1600 AD.

    Which one of these lines is "THE" Fitzpatrick line? Look at the variety of L21 Children that make up this collection of Fitzpatrick surnames.

    Which one of these lines would you say is not Irish in origin?

    There are definitely stories to be told from these very early stages of Genetic Genealogy but we are still in the "earth is flat" stage of things.

    I will tell you one thing, with each incoming test result we learn more and more, but the lesson I have learned in the last few years of studying and research is....expect the unexpected.

    L21 Fitzpatrick DNA Lines.png
    Last edited by IanFitzpatrick; 10-28-2020 at 07:27 PM.

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