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Thread: New L513 aDNA finds in Ireland

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I don't necessarily think that the aDNA L513 that has been found in Munster originated in SW Scotland. They belong to a downstream SNP that seems to have more representation in Ireland today. It's all speculation, but so far I think it probably went something like this:

    - L21 was present in the Bell Beaker folks who migrated west through Europe. At some stage the L513 SNP evolved among them.

    - L513 folks were part of a major wave into Britain and Ireland (I believe these folks probably mostly settled in Ireland and Scotland, but that is based on the present day frequency, and limited testing rates of course).

    - L513, along with other L21 clades (e.g. DF49, DF21 and the rest) were successful in Britain and Ireland, developing the many sub-branches we see today. As part of this branching, L513 grew many well-populated branches in Ireland and Scotland (and maybe elsewhere) simultaneously. So for example it looks like L193 was developing in Scotland at the same time as the Irish branches were developing in Ireland. That's not to say that L513 folks did not travel between the islands - of course they did, but there seem to be well established L513 clades that are very frequent in one particular area (like L193 in Scotland).

    So I guess the questions that interest me are:

    1. Who were the main L513 guys when they arrived in the isles? Some say Menapii, from Gaul. I simply don't know.
    2. Which kinship/clan groups in the isles are represented by the various subclades of L513? I know that the big Maguire grouping with Ulster roots looks like it is majority L513. L193 looks Scottish, and seems to be spread all over (possibly with more frequency in the west, like most of L21). For the longest time I'Ve been wondering whether the L193 guys were mostly Picts, Gaels, Ancient Britons or what else. I suspect that L193 was found in several, if not all, of these groups. My 'pet theory' is that L193 in the SW of Scotland might be connected to the Gall Gaidheal - I base this on the general maritime frequency of L513, as well as the western frequency of L193 in Scotland and the link between the Hebrides and Galloway/Ayrshire, which was the homeland of the Gall Gaidheal in the early medieval period.

    I welcome disagreement with any of the above, and of course debate of the points raised!
    Ok fair enough. You sound like you are well versed in this subject. I am L193 myself and am interested in determining a point of origin. There doesn’t seem to be a particular region for L193.

    I will watch along.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Ok fair enough. You sound like you are well versed in this subject. I am L193 myself and am interested in determining a point of origin. There doesn’t seem to be a particular region for L193.

    I will watch along.
    Like Ian says (previous comment), it is really tough, and as things develop, the old assumptions shift. For example, back in the day (around 10 years ago), L193 was nicknamed 'Scottish Borders', because there were a lot of testers who traced genealogy back to that region of Scotland. However, now I don't think you can really say that. There are lots of lines with trails back to the Hebrides, to Perthshire, to Lanark and central Scotland, and even much further north (e.g. the Mathesons). We're probably quite a long way off being able to untangle it all.

    But that's why I think the aDNA finds in Munster are so important. Because that establishes that L513 was in that area at that early stage (c. 500AD).

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post

    But that's why I think the aDNA finds in Munster are so important. Because that establishes that L513 was in that area at that early stage (c. 500AD).
    Yes, and that’s an amazing fact (not speculation) to have, only a handful of Haplogroups have that information

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    Yes, and that’s an amazing fact (not speculation) to have, only a handful of Haplogroups have that information
    That's what I think. I find it a bit confusing that this has not caused much more discussion and excitement in the L513 group here, or on Facebook, or the FTDNA chat forum. I've posted on all those sites, but not getting much back. As far as I know, the closest equivalent of this was the DF21 remains found on Rathlin Island a few years back, and that caused a major stir.

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I find it a bit confusing that this has not caused much more discussion and excitement in the L513 group here, or on Facebook, or the FTDNA chat forum.
    The implications of these finds extends all the way up to L21 in my opinion.

    To find two samples dated back to pretty much the time FGC11134 originated shows that FGC11134 men were settled in Ireland around 2200BC.

    We have two nicely developed L513 Fitzpatrick lines and we are researching the relationship between the Cavan/Fermanagh Fitzpatricks with the Maguire which was a close one historically.



    In case anyone missed my post in the CTS4466 thread here are the results

    Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

    The carbon dates have been calibrated and I am sure they are very much in the range.

    When you look at how close the generations from L21 to the sons of DF13 really are, it suggests L21 could have been born anywhere in the region.

    I could easily make a case that the concentration map of modern L21 is explained with an Irish origin. Many have suggested L21 was "driven" into Ireland and died out everywhere else.

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21.png
    Last edited by IanFitzpatrick; 10-29-2020 at 12:04 PM.

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  9. #16
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    Great stuff, thanks Ian. Certainly L21 in terms of frequency and diversity is probably best represented in Ireland/W Scotland. I've heard others vigorously argue for a continental origin for L21; but certainly the Eupedia map, as well as these emerging aDNA finds might start swinging the case over to an Irish origin? It's amazing to see this picture unfold, it really is.

  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    We have two nicely developed L513 Fitzpatrick lines and we are researching the relationship between the Cavan/Fermanagh Fitzpatricks with the Maguire which was a close one historically.

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21.png
    Just checked out the Fitzpatrick project site/s. Really interesting. Seems to be a very diverse surname/clan grouping, and of mutual interest to us here in L513! I wasn't aware of it as a big L513 surname, nor of the Maguire link.

  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Seems to be a very diverse surname/clan grouping
    Dr Mike Fitzpatrick wrote a very interesting paper found here

    https://www.mdpi.com/2313-5778/4/1/25/htm

    Just a few years ago as Y-DNA lines began to surface with very limited information it became almost first come first serve on who was going to lay claim to being the "name" line. the huge number of threads on this board that end in 2015 is mainly due to the fact it started to become very apparent that the thinking that clans had one DNA line was really unrealistic. Irish clans were made from very diverse groups of people that probably took a clan name for many reasons and DNA is showing this.

    The Fitzpatrick DNA study is one of the oldest Surname Y-DNA studies out there started in 2005 by Dr Colleen Fitzpatrick
    Last edited by IanFitzpatrick; 10-29-2020 at 02:10 PM.

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    Thanks Ian, this looks great. I'll do my homework on the Fitzpatrick lineages

    It may still be too early to disentangle all the L21 lines...but maybe it's getting to the point where we can tentatively suggest language communities? With this recent aDNA find for L513, and the western bias in Scotland, I'm starting to think this was a marker spread by Goedelic language speakers. There's a fair bit of L513 in Perthshire, but that region was also colonised by Gaels of course. The L513 communities in Ireland and Scotland might be part of the ancient Gael communities in both places.

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  15. #20
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    I KNEW there was a reason I logged in today (and played a two week catch up)!!

    Jon ans Ian, Many thanks for the outstanding data!! Among my most frequent grumbles has been "When will we find both genetic and archeological evidence of AGE?" Seems like we are getting there. I just figured that most of my ancient ancestors were raiders and traders, living in marshes or coastal locations that tend not to preserve remains well. Ian, your links above are GOLD!!

    And yes, based upon the Z1640 SNP shared by us A2 types with only Belgian and Swedes...that simply screams Menapii, to me. S5668 is where we shared our earlier ancestors, very close in time to L513, but significant in that L193 and Z16340 both have maritime patterns. My pet hypothesis is that L193 = Venti tribe where us A2 are Menapii tribe....but that's just a gut feeling, until more bones are found and sequenced.

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