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Thread: New L513 aDNA finds in Ireland

  1. #31
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    What I think we will see with younger L21 lines of say 2000 years or younger is that they moved about within and between Britain and Ireland (both directions) far more than we think. A lot of them might have been set up by small groups of people or small clan bands who came as swords for hire who were invited to bolster the defense of an area by local kings. These little groups may have grown over a couple of centuries and then become a power within their own right, possibly overtoppling the local elite whose ancestors had invited them. I think this might create the sort of pattern we see of lineages with hotspots in widely separated areas despite a relatively recent common ancestor or say 1000 or 2000 years ago. That sort of process of a small band of originally subordinate settlers only becoming a force to be reckoned with maybe 4 or 5 generations later after growth would be a very hard thing to spot archaeologically as even by the 2nd generation their material culture would likely just look like the locals and their numbers didnt expand until they had essentially 'gone native' in terms of material culture.

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  3. #32
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    Someone mentioned some lineages having a maritime distribution. One lineage I noticed clearly as that is the DF 21 derived P314.2 (now renamed but I cant remember its name) or rather the part of it that suddenly expanded 2000-1500 years ago. The modern people with that lineage have a distribution mostly along the west coast of Ireland and the Hebrides/west Highlands of Scotland. It looks very much like people on boats moving it about. Its scattered through no many unrelated surnames its incredible (so I am guessing its spread is pre-surname) though it has a big group which was one of the royal lines among the McCarthys of SW Ireland. In fact there seems to be something about even early DF21 and the seas between Ireland and the Hebrides/western Scotland judging by its presence nearly 4000 years ago on Rathlin Island in that very area. Maybe DF21 spawned a lot of lineages who were maritime people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevlos21 View Post
    I'm not sure how anyone can still be seriously suggesting that DF-21 (Rathlin) or CTS4466 could have been recent (500BC-100AD) Belgic, Welsh, or European "Celtic" elite Ydna takeovers. And yet it seems that is still the story even in DNA circles.

    And, as you say, it then has knock on implications for all of L21, even if there are no solid dna finds.

    Was there ever any confirmation if the DF-21 Rathlin island finds were the genetic parents of current Irish downstream DF-21 groups, or if they were "dead end" lines? Too early to be checking the same about FGC11134 I guess, but I'd like to see them try with both halogroups.
    One thing about maritime trading/seafaring groups is they may well have subsets of the same lineage at both ends of their searoute. This was the case with the sub-roman Irish settlers in western Britain. Groups like that may have been welcome as enclaves in several places due to them bringing trade etc. We allegedly have DF21 ancient DNA of Gauls close to the Gaulish trading port of Narbonne. Kind of suggests pockets of lineage could exist in nodal trading points at scattered locations on some sort of widespread trading network. Pockets of warriors could also be permanently settled as buffers at considerable distance from their home tribe too. There are many historical instances of this kind of thing.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    What I think we will see with younger L21 lines of say 2000 years or younger is that they moved about within and between Britain and Ireland (both directions) far more than we think. A lot of them might have been set up by small groups of people or small clan bands who came as swords for hire who were invited to bolster the defense of an area by local kings. These little groups may have grown over a couple of centuries and then become a power within their own right, possibly overtoppling the local elite whose ancestors had invited them. I think this might create the sort of pattern we see of lineages with hotspots in widely separated areas despite a relatively recent common ancestor or say 1000 or 2000 years ago. That sort of process of a small band of originally subordinate settlers only becoming a force to be reckoned with maybe 4 or 5 generations later after growth would be a very hard thing to spot archaeologically as even by the 2nd generation their material culture would likely just look like the locals and their numbers didnt expand until they had essentially 'gone native' in terms of material culture.
    I have queried FTDNA on the distribution of ages of the branches. I asked this because I noticed a jump up in sustained branching for R1b-L513 the last 1000 years.
    FTDNA told me 58% of all branches on the haplotree have MRCAs of less than a 1000 years.

    There is a noticeable increase as of about 2000-1000 years ago but it doesn’t compare with the growth the last 1000 years. I don’t know if this better medicine, or relatively prosperous times or what. I suspect that the British Isles haplogroups, regardless of what letter, are leaders in growth of recent branching

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    There is a noticeable increase as of about 2000-1000 years ago but it doesn’t compare with the growth the last 1000 years. I don’t know if this better medicine, or relatively prosperous times or what. I suspect that the British Isles haplogroups, regardless of what letter, are leaders in growth of recent branching
    This pattern is spread across the L-21 groups in particular, all you need to do is load up one of the old groups...FGC11134, FGC5494, ZZ10 and L515 etc.. on The Big Tree and the long bottleneck blocks that end with a large increases in branching around 800-900 AD jumps off the page. This is also the time of the formation of the clans in Ireland so it is not surprising that people flourished under this new system of community. The sons and grandsons of L21 prospered initially and some seem to have spread throughout the Isles (2400BC to 2000BC) and then seemed to have struggled, spread too thin is my guess. Finding FGC11134 samples in Sligo and Fermanagh from 2300BC shows just how deep into nowhere they found themselves.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Someone mentioned some lineages having a maritime distribution. One lineage I noticed clearly as that is the DF 21 derived P314.2 (now renamed but I cant remember its name) or rather the part of it that suddenly expanded 2000-1500 years ago. The modern people with that lineage have a distribution mostly along the west coast of Ireland and the Hebrides/west Highlands of Scotland. It looks very much like people on boats moving it about. Its scattered through no many unrelated surnames its incredible (so I am guessing its spread is pre-surname) though it has a big group which was one of the royal lines among the McCarthys of SW Ireland. In fact there seems to be something about even early DF21 and the seas between Ireland and the Hebrides/western Scotland judging by its presence nearly 4000 years ago on Rathlin Island in that very area. Maybe DF21 spawned a lot of lineages who were maritime people.
    This could describe much of L513 IMO: south/west coastal Ireland, plus the north east, then up the western seaboard of Scotland. Much has been said about the hotspot of L193 in the south of Scotland - but most lineages are south WEST, and that is a difference. We're then into the old Kingdom of Galloway, an area famously raided and settled from....the sea. This also links in to some of the theories I've read for L513 coming over with the Veneti or Menapi Gaulish tribes. Whatever it is, I certainly feel like the sea, and sea transport, were very important to L513.

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  12. #37
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    I think too that the hybrid Gall-Gael (Viking-Gael) groups just are not well understood. I strongly suspect that will turn out to overall be genetically far Gael than Gall. Probably initially under Viking dynasties but with large chunks of the warbands recruited from existing similar militaristic characters in the Gaelic and even northermost part of the Pictish world. There was already in pre-Viking times considerable historical evidence of large military fleets in Argyll, the Hebrides and Orkney. A ready made group of maritime warriors for Vikings to recruit. So they might represent a phase of spreading mostly Gaelic and even some Pictish lineages under a viking looking cultural guise. The direction of spread may have been mostly north to south along the western seaboard. That would produce some very confusing patterns and may explain some of the strange patterns we see among L21 subclades with relatively recent common ancestors in the 1500-1000 year range. These bands of Gaels who were under strong Viking influence and probably leadership were reviled by the people who wrote the annals so they may have been to some extent edited out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think too that the hybrid Gall-Gael (Viking-Gael) groups just are not well understood. I strongly suspect that will turn out to overall be genetically far Gael than Gall. Probably initially under Viking dynasties but with large chunks of the warbands recruited from existing similar militaristic characters in the Gaelic and even northermost part of the Pictish world. There was already in pre-Viking times considerable historical evidence of large military fleets in Argyll, the Hebrides and Orkney. A ready made group of maritime warriors for Vikings to recruit. So they might represent a phase of spreading mostly Gaelic and even some Pictish lineages under a viking looking cultural guise. The direction of spread may have been mostly north to south along the western seaboard. That would produce some very confusing patterns and may explain some of the strange patterns we see among L21 subclades with relatively recent common ancestors in the 1500-1000 year range. These bands of Gaels who were under strong Viking influence and probably leadership were reviled by the people who wrote the annals so they may have been to some extent edited out.
    I agree with every word of this. Especially the idea of the Gall-Gael as an 'occupational' name rather than necessarily ethnic.
    L513 patterns strongly suggest what you discuss, including a rather confusing modern day distribution and surname representation. Very coastal, highly represented in the SW of Scotland (Galloway), and found mostly in Scotland and Ireland but with a so-far unexplained Nordic element. In particular we must consider the aDNA evidence so far. As I am aware, L513 has been found:
    - In a mass grave in Dorset of a (viking?) war band who were executed
    - In two locations in the Faroe Islands, again buried alongside non-L513 men
    - In two locations in County Cork (Ballybunion and Courtmacsherry - both right on the coast) (thus far unpublished)

    I know one has to be careful about trying to find an over-riding theory for all this (a simple solution probably doesn't exist), but the Gall-Gael have long been on my mind as a potential element in L513 patterns, and indeed in some of the western L193 groups we see. This would also explain the rather 'scattered' nature of both the distribution and the surnames, if these were mobile war bands.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think too that the hybrid Gall-Gael (Viking-Gael) groups just are not well understood. I strongly suspect that will turn out to overall be genetically far Gael than Gall. Probably initially under Viking dynasties but with large chunks of the warbands recruited from existing similar militaristic characters in the Gaelic and even northermost part of the Pictish world. There was already in pre-Viking times considerable historical evidence of large military fleets in Argyll, the Hebrides and Orkney. A ready made group of maritime warriors for Vikings to recruit. So they might represent a phase of spreading mostly Gaelic and even some Pictish lineages under a viking looking cultural guise. The direction of spread may have been mostly north to south along the western seaboard. That would produce some very confusing patterns and may explain some of the strange patterns we see among L21 subclades with relatively recent common ancestors in the 1500-1000 year range. These bands of Gaels who were under strong Viking influence and probably leadership were reviled by the people who wrote the annals so they may have been to some extent edited out.
    Well a good example of this is the R-M222+ (A225+ specifically) aDNA sample form Dublin viking burial (VK545).

    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y3646/

    A225 today appears to be dominated by surnames with origins in Scotland.
    https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.ph...617&star=false

    VK545 from an isotope analysis seems to have connection to Hebrides (if I recall correctly)




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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Well a good example of this is the R-M222+ (A225+ specifically) aDNA sample form Dublin viking burial (VK545).

    A225 today appears to be dominated by surnames with origins in Scotland.
    https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.ph...617&star=false

    VK545 from an isotope analysis seems to have connection to Hebrides (if I recall correctly)
    Dubhthach do you know if VK258 is also M222 (you have him highlighted in your graphic)? If so, a L513 man is there as well, VK263 (details below). VK263 seems to have a lower UK/Ireland mixture in his DNA than the M222 guys you highlighted. Does this represent a greater Nordic element in his overall make-up, or does that say anything about the L513 HG being more Scandanavian than say M222? At 35% UK/N Atlantic and 38% Norwegian, VK263 seems to be a real mix - maybe the descendent of an older migration (or even a Scottish/Irish slave), many generations before, leading to a greater admix?

    For reference, here are the three L513 men:

    VK27: L21>DF13>L513>L908 - Medieval Age - Denmark/N.Atlantic - Faroe.SG_Med

    VK263: L21>DF13>L513>S6365>BY16>Z16372 - Viking Age - England - Dorset.SG_VA (The Viking mass grave)

    VK287: L21>DF13>L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9798>FGC9811>FGC9779 >FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800 - Viking Age - Denmark - Langeland.SG_VA
    Last edited by Jon; 03-09-2021 at 05:27 PM.

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