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Thread: New L513 aDNA finds in Ireland

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    But that's why I think the aDNA finds in Munster are so important. Because that establishes that L513 was in that area at that early stage (c. 500AD).
    Since both these guys are CTS3087/CTS750, are about about 500 AD, and L513 is about 1900 BC, this doesn't establish L513 as originating in Ireland. Yes, it sure has been in the British Isles for a long time, probably in old Britons and probably in old Gaels too. Then we have the folks from Belgium and Sweden...

    By the way, do we know if they are CTS3087+ or - or a no call? That would be interesting if these samples broke the phylogenetic block.

    I am excited about any ancient DNA from L513 but I think we have to start looking at clans harder, which I don't really know well. Contrary to popular opinion, I try to be quiet if I don't anything intelligent to say. On the other hand, I'm sure many don't think I have ANYthing intelligent to say.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 10-29-2020 at 09:53 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Since both these guys are CTS3087/CTS750, are about about 500 AD, and L513 is about 1900 BC, this doesn't establish L513 as originating in Ireland. Yes, it sure has been in the British Isles for a long time, probably in old Britons and probably in old Gaels too. Then we have the folks from Belgium and Sweden...

    By the way, do we know if they are CTS3087+ or - or a no call? That would be interesting if these samples broke the phylogenetic block.

    I am excited about any ancient DNA from L513 but I think we have to start looking at clans harder, which I don't really know well. Contrary to popular opinion, I try to be quiet if I don't anything intelligent to say. On the other hand, I'm sure many don't think I have ANYthing intelligent to say.
    Thanks Mike, great to hear your thoughts, and always welcome - you are MISTER L513 (!), never forget it!

    I'm afraid I don't have any additional info on the finds as yet. Maybe that's the reason for this second delay: perhaps they're doing additional analysis?

    Very cool that we have L513 on the 'aDNA map' now, with this and the Viking World study.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Since both these guys are CTS3087/CTS750, are about about 500 AD, and L513 is about 1900 BC, this doesn't establish L513 as originating in Ireland

    By the way, do we know if they are CTS3087+ or - or a no call? That would be interesting if these samples broke the phylogenetic block.
    It also doesn't eliminate the possibility L513 originated in Ireland either. The fact FGC11134 was there also doesn't prove L513 was in Ireland, but it sure makes the possibility it could have been there much higher.
    Again, does a few hundred miles difference in the place of origin really mean much at all?

    The sample was not tested for CTS3087, neither + or - or no call.
    Last edited by IanFitzpatrick; 10-30-2020 at 11:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Just checked out the Fitzpatrick project site/s. Really interesting. Seems to be a very diverse surname/clan grouping, and of mutual interest to us here in L513! I wasn't aware of it as a big L513 surname, nor of the Maguire link.
    We have some interesting connections to the Maguires with Padraig surnames.

    Of course the L513 line but specifically we have Fitzpatricks FGC9811+ . We will be researching and investing in BigY testing for this group in the near future

    http://peterspioneers.com/fermanaghstory.pdf
    Here it is written "In Fermanagh the Fitzpatricks were a branch of the Maguires"

    There is also a very interesting result under FGC5494 however with two deep connections of two Fitzpatrick men from the Cavan area who also connect with two Lunney men.
    https://sites.rootsweb.com/~amaguire/oriel.htm

    In the "Geinealaighe Fearmanach" or in English "Fermanagh Genealogies" written by O'Luinnis, found in Coleman's College, Fermoy, County Cork, the pedigrees of more than a thousand Maguire families are recorded. Padar Livingstons "The Fermanagh Story", p.432, reports that the "O'Luinnis or Giolla Padraig O' Luinin of Inishmore Island mentioned above helped Micheal O' Cleirigh and the Four Masters in the Abbey of Lisgoole, which by the way was founded by Cuchonngacht Maguire II in 1583, when they were re-compiling the "Leabhar Gabhala - The Book of the Talkings" a history of Ireland from oral traditions, in 1631. Possibly the same man , but described as Padraig Ballach O' Luinin, who copied words for Brian Maguire of Tempo in 1638".



    One of the largest Fitzpatrick blocks also seems to have roots in Breifne under ZZ44 which if you look here has a definitely Irish Block, English Block and a more Scots block with a man from the Ukraine?? Was ZZ44 Irish, Scot or English born?
    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1084

    These are further examples that illustrate the complexity of clan roots and how they came to the modern surnames they have today. One must keep a wide open mind on this topic and be careful not to become entrenched in one theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    We have some interesting connections to the Maguires with Padraig surnames.

    Of course the L513 line but specifically we have Fitzpatricks FGC9811+ . We will be researching and investing in BigY testing for this group in the near future

    http://peterspioneers.com/fermanaghstory.pdf
    Here it is written "In Fermanagh the Fitzpatricks were a branch of the Maguires"

    There is also a very interesting result under FGC5494 however with two deep connections of two Fitzpatrick men from the Cavan area who also connect with two Lunney men.
    https://sites.rootsweb.com/~amaguire/oriel.htm

    In the "Geinealaighe Fearmanach" or in English "Fermanagh Genealogies" written by O'Luinnis, found in Coleman's College, Fermoy, County Cork, the pedigrees of more than a thousand Maguire families are recorded. Padar Livingstons "The Fermanagh Story", p.432, reports that the "O'Luinnis or Giolla Padraig O' Luinin of Inishmore Island mentioned above helped Micheal O' Cleirigh and the Four Masters in the Abbey of Lisgoole, which by the way was founded by Cuchonngacht Maguire II in 1583, when they were re-compiling the "Leabhar Gabhala - The Book of the Talkings" a history of Ireland from oral traditions, in 1631. Possibly the same man , but described as Padraig Ballach O' Luinin, who copied words for Brian Maguire of Tempo in 1638".



    One of the largest Fitzpatrick blocks also seems to have roots in Breifne under ZZ44 which if you look here has a definitely Irish Block, English Block and a more Scots block with a man from the Ukraine?? Was ZZ44 Irish, Scot or English born?
    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1084

    These are further examples that illustrate the complexity of clan roots and how they came to the modern surnames they have today. One must keep a wide open mind on this topic and be careful not to become entrenched in one theory.
    Well said Ian - I will take time look into all of this information.

    I agree that a few hundred miles in terms of point of origin is less important. Wherever these L21 groups originated doesn't change the by now undeniable fact that in terms of density, diversity, and ancient presence (as evidenced by ongoing aDNA finds), Ireland is a massive hotspot.
    Last edited by Jon; 10-30-2020 at 01:24 PM.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Ireland is a massive hotspot.
    Ireland really started to see a population explosion after 800 AD
    Last edited by IanFitzpatrick; 10-31-2020 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    Ireland really started to see a population explosion after 800 AD
    Any reasons for that?

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    I’m not really sure the exact cause of the explosion but you can definitely see it, like counting rings on a tree.

    The best way to see it is on any large Haplogroup on the Big Tree. Pick one like L513 or FGC11134 and you can see a pattern of long bottlenecked lines that really start to branch around 800-900 AD

    It’s probably not a coincidence that around this time is when clans started to form

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    I’m not really sure the exact cause of the explosion but you can definitely see it, like counting rings on a tree.

    The best way to see it is on any large Haplogroup on the Big Tree. Pick one like L513 or FGC11134 and you can see a pattern of long bottlenecked lines that really start to branch around 800-900 AD

    It’s probably not a coincidence that around this time is when clans started to form
    Thanks Ian. You see this branching with L193 in Scotland as well - although I believe that's been timed slightly earlier, around the time the Romans left, which would also make sense.

    I'Ve been doing a bit of digging on this, as I'm not so familiar with the Irish clan system. It seems that the Irish clans were tied to earlier kinship and tribal groups. This is different from the Scottish clan system I think. In Scotland, some of the more ancient clans were tied to earlier celtic tribal groups, but the clans don't really take off until later medieval times. A good number of the Scottish clans were formed by Normans, for example.

    It's so tempting to speculate...but I was reading a bit about Munster again. The Corcu Duibne caught my eye, as one of the principle septs in Munster, and the ancestors of the O'Shea. They were part of the Sil Conairi of the Erainn, who were seemingly an older group based in Munster, pushed out of power by later incomers (like the Eogonachta). The Sil Conairi who remained in Munster have been attributed with the rise of Ogham script....and were, apparently renowned sailors. This has fired my imagination on the coastal burial sites of our two aDNA L513 men (these locations would suggest maritime lives and/or marginal communities pushed out by other groups). To add to it all, the Sil Conairi were also said to be the ancestors of the Dal Riata, and even two early Kings of the Picts (which could explain the close Scottish-Irish connections in L513).

    I openly admit: most of this is very new knowledge for me, and yes, I did consult Wikipedia (not the most reliable font of knowledge!). But this seems to be a heck of a lot of coincidences. I know that L513 is old, and I know it's been in Ireland and Scotland for a long, long time (wherever it came from, and indeed the Erainn have an origin myth tracing back to Gaul, which might fit in with the recent suggestion that L513 is linked to ancient Gaulish tribes as well).

    I accept that you, and others, know an awful lot more about this than I do! This just caught my eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    The implications of these finds extends all the way up to L21 in my opinion.

    To find two samples dated back to pretty much the time FGC11134 originated shows that FGC11134 men were settled in Ireland around 2200BC.

    We have two nicely developed L513 Fitzpatrick lines and we are researching the relationship between the Cavan/Fermanagh Fitzpatricks with the Maguire which was a close one historically.



    In case anyone missed my post in the CTS4466 thread here are the results

    Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

    The carbon dates have been calibrated and I am sure they are very much in the range.

    When you look at how close the generations from L21 to the sons of DF13 really are, it suggests L21 could have been born anywhere in the region.

    I could easily make a case that the concentration map of modern L21 is explained with an Irish origin. Many have suggested L21 was "driven" into Ireland and died out everywhere else.

    Attachment 40760
    I'm not sure how anyone can still be seriously suggesting that DF-21 (Rathlin) or CTS4466 could have been recent (500BC-100AD) Belgic, Welsh, or European "Celtic" elite Ydna takeovers. And yet it seems that is still the story even in DNA circles.

    And, as you say, it then has knock on implications for all of L21, even if there are no solid dna finds.

    Was there ever any confirmation if the DF-21 Rathlin island finds were the genetic parents of current Irish downstream DF-21 groups, or if they were "dead end" lines? Too early to be checking the same about FGC11134 I guess, but I'd like to see them try with both halogroups.

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