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Thread: New L513 aDNA finds in Ireland

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Dubhthach do you know if VK258 is also M222 (you have him highlighted in your graphic)? If so, a L513 man is there as well, VK263 (details below). VK263 seems to have a lower UK/Ireland mixture in his DNA than the M222 guys you highlighted. Does this represent a greater Nordic element in his overall make-up, or does that say anything about the L513 HG being more Scandanavian than say M222? At 35% UK/N Atlantic and 38% Norwegian, VK263 seems to be a real mix - maybe the descendent of an older migration (or even a Scottish/Irish slave), many generations before, leading to a greater admix?

    For reference, here are the three L513 men:

    VK27: L21>DF13>L513>L908 - Medieval Age - Denmark/N.Atlantic - Faroe.SG_Med

    VK263: L21>DF13>L513>S6365>BY16>Z16372 - Viking Age - England - Dorset.SG_VA (The Viking mass grave)

    VK287: L21>DF13>L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9798>FGC9811>FGC9779 >FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800 - Viking Age - Denmark - Langeland.SG_VA
    Well that image is from 2018, I believe I only high lighted VK258 at the time to point out the high autosomal level in the "UK - British/North Atlantic" component. I believe that individual is R1a specifically falling into wider Scandinavian cluster of R1a.
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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Well that image is from 2018, I believe I only high lighted VK258 at the time to point out the high autosomal level in the "UK - British/North Atlantic" component. I believe that individual is R1a specifically falling into wider Scandinavian cluster of R1a.
    Thanks. I've been reading a bit about the Gall-Gael following on from what Alan was saying. Woolf (2007) has some interesting observations that fit in. He points to recent evidence (although non-genetic) suggesting that the old model of 'Norse rulers' and 'Gaelic peasantry' in the Hebrides in his period (789-1070) be re-assessed in favour of a more thorough model of Norse settlement (including intermarriage). This would explain high levels of Nordic DNA in individuals with an ostensibly 'UK/Irish' Y-DNA (e.g. M222 or L513). Interestingly, he also points to something that ties in nicely with the kind of scattered pattern we see with L513, also mentioned by Alan:

    "...fluid political and social structures...lack of complex hierarchy...it seems likely that the Gallgaedil spread across southern Scotland and northern England in much the same way. Their lack of identifiable leaders and enduring dynasties made them practically invisible in an age when chronicles, for the most part, simply recorded the deaths of great men" (297-298).

    It does indeed same strange that for a people who gave their name to quite a large region of Scotland (Galloway), and one that was even bigger in the period under investigation, there should be so little trace and such confusion as to their origins and background. I believe Clancy claims that they must have been exclusively Irish in origin; Woolf seems to admit at least partly a Hebridean background.

  4. #43
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    Is there a low volume of testers in southern Scotland? My lack of matches there in my Y DNA strikes me as odd.

    Perhaps this is contributing to the lack of clarity on Galloway origins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Is there a low volume of testers in southern Scotland? My lack of matches there in my Y DNA strikes me as odd.

    Perhaps this is contributing to the lack of clarity on Galloway origins?
    I don't think there is a general lack of testers with Scottish lowland roots. My understanding is that folks with Irish and Scottish ancestry are actually over-represented, which could be skewing the results of some HG's towards origins in those countries. I think there is a real need for increased testing in the continent, especially France, for example, to get clearer pictures overall.

    Galloway as far as I know was one of the most mixed regions of Scotland genetically. Just about all the major ethnic groups had a presence there - ancient Britons, Picts (although this is debated), Gaels (both Hebridean and Irish), Northumbrians/Bernicians, Vikings, Saxons, Romans; then later of course the Normans. The genetic picture must be a real mix, compared to Argyll or the Hebrides for example. I have Ayrshire/Galloway male line roots, and I'm L193, but I'm not close to the other big L193 lines in Galloway like the A3 Kennedy/Little group for example. My guess is that L193 was in northern populations very early, meaning it was probably found in several of the later groups that emerged, like Gaels, Picts, Britons, Gall-Gael etc. Downstream testing is therefore important, but so far for me it hasn't really helped that much. My one closer match (Meek), also has early roots in the south of Scotland, around the Clyde area. So could be anything really, I guess.

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I don't think there is a general lack of testers with Scottish lowland roots. My understanding is that folks with Irish and Scottish ancestry are actually over-represented, which could be skewing the results of some HG's towards origins in those countries. I think there is a real need for increased testing in the continent, especially France, for example, to get clearer pictures overall.

    Galloway as far as I know was one of the most mixed regions of Scotland genetically. Just about all the major ethnic groups had a presence there - ancient Britons, Picts (although this is debated), Gaels (both Hebridean and Irish), Northumbrians/Bernicians, Vikings, Saxons, Romans; then later of course the Normans. The genetic picture must be a real mix, compared to Argyll or the Hebrides for example. I have Ayrshire/Galloway male line roots, and I'm L193, but I'm not close to the other big L193 lines in Galloway like the A3 Kennedy/Little group for example. My guess is that L193 was in northern populations very early, meaning it was probably found in several of the later groups that emerged, like Gaels, Picts, Britons, Gall-Gael etc. Downstream testing is therefore important, but so far for me it hasn't really helped that much. My one closer match (Meek), also has early roots in the south of Scotland, around the Clyde area. So could be anything really, I guess.
    The central Belt area between Edinbugh and Glasgow is densely populated today but is a melting pot made up mostly of people with Lowland, Highland Scots and Irish (both RC and protestant) ancestry. And most families are not purely one of those things. There are even a huge number of cross denominational marriages too. But the area further south from Galloway to Berwick, southern Scotland proper, is mostly a hilly area with a low population density and was a lot less of a melting pot. Though today it has a great number of retirees coming from England who are a mix of returning Scots and English people.

  7. #46
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    Alan, any thoughts on the L513 guy in the Viking grave? Interesting that he was pretty much equally UK/N Atlantic and Norwegian in the analysis. I just read a news report that said isotope analysis suggested the band had been living in Scandinavia. Maybe the descendent in the male line of a Scottish/Irish warrior who ended up in the Nordic zone?

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I don't think there is a general lack of testers with Scottish lowland roots. My understanding is that folks with Irish and Scottish ancestry are actually over-represented, which could be skewing the results of some HG's towards origins in those countries. I think there is a real need for increased testing in the continent, especially France, for example, to get clearer pictures overall.

    Galloway as far as I know was one of the most mixed regions of Scotland genetically. Just about all the major ethnic groups had a presence there - ancient Britons, Picts (although this is debated), Gaels (both Hebridean and Irish), Northumbrians/Bernicians, Vikings, Saxons, Romans; then later of course the Normans. The genetic picture must be a real mix, compared to Argyll or the Hebrides for example. I have Ayrshire/Galloway male line roots, and I'm L193, but I'm not close to the other big L193 lines in Galloway like the A3 Kennedy/Little group for example. My guess is that L193 was in northern populations very early, meaning it was probably found in several of the later groups that emerged, like Gaels, Picts, Britons, Gall-Gael etc. Downstream testing is therefore important, but so far for me it hasn't really helped that much. My one closer match (Meek), also has early roots in the south of Scotland, around the Clyde area. So could be anything really, I guess.
    Really? My Y DNA matches are overwhelmingly American!

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