BAM Files is Available (A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia's Eastern )

[Ryukendo]

My view is closer to that of Zelto, although Kristina does make some interesting points. I think it is really telling that there is virtually no Haplogroup N among Native American populations (with the exception of the Tlicho, a Na-Dene speaking indigenous group in Northern Canada. The Na-Dene peoples are in fact descended from a later migration into the New World than most indigenous Americans.

Wow, AFAIK all Y-chromosomes in NAms known so far fall under C and Q, do you have a reference??

[alchemist223]

Wow, AFAIK all Y-chromosomes in NAms known so far fall under C and Q, do you have a reference??

Here it is.

Y-chromosome analysis reveals genetic divergence and new founding native lineages in Athapaskan- and Eskimoan-speaking populations by Dulik, Owings, et. al

[Megalophias]

Wow, AFAIK all Y-chromosomes in NAms known so far fall under C and Q, do you have a reference??

Tlicho also have rare Native American R1b-M269, J2b-M12, and I1-M253.

Not that it *couldn't* possibly be some Native N TBF.

PS Nevgen thinks it's Volga-Uralic N-Y9022.

[alchemist223]

Tlicho also have rare Native American R1b-M269, J2b-M12, and I1-M253.

Not that it *couldn't* possibly be some Native N TBF.

PS Nevgen thinks it's Volga-Uralic N-Y9022.

Good point.

[Kristiina]

Sure, why not? Although I would consider Amur to be "within the region of present day China".

OK. I donate 120€ to Anthrogenica if 16-20 kya old N is found within the borders of China south of the City of Harbin (and excluding Japan and Korea). You donate 120€ to Anthrogenica if 16-20 kya old N is found outside of China excluding Amur, Primorye and Khabarovsk oblasts in Russia.

Money goes to a good cause. If the refuge turns out to be in Amur, Primorye or Khabarovsk oblasts, I make a small donation to AG, so that it gets something from this bet.

[ybmpark]

OK. I donate 120€ to Anthrogenica if 16-20 kya old N is found within the borders of China south of the City of Harbin (and excluding Japan and Korea)...

My money would be safe even if I delcared I would donate my savings and wife and kids if a 16-20 Ky old N is found anywhere. They of course existed but are not likely to be found anytime soon. And certainly not in Europe.
Wife and kids are the first to go since... I don't have them.

[ybmpark]

Tlicho also have rare Native American R1b-M269, J2b-M12, and I1-M253. ...

There was a debate almost 20 years ago about some Native American R that might have come from Siberia directly.
Some NA R had STR profiles very different from European R1b-M269's but I wonder how or whether that debate is resolved, especially from modern perspectives with so many additional SNP's.

[VladimirTaraskin]

Of course, neither C* nor C2*has been detected yet. But the probability that C separated from F in the middle East is higher than if it happened in East Asia. Apparently the earliest sample from the C2 population is Salkhit Levallois_EUP, 34950-33900 BCE. In the future, the Levallois tradition in the Altai mountains and the Mongolian plateau is transformed into the LUP tradition "Kara BOM". In Siberia, this tradition has common features with the traditions of Kostenki14. By the way, the "Kara BOM" tradition takes place at the Ust-Kyakhta-3, where a sample of UKY001, C2a-pre-P39, 12100-11800 BCE was found. On the other hand. Judging by YFull, Tianyuan 38170-36880 BCE, is P1, not K2b. Further in Russia, near Vladivostok, there is an inhabited cave named after the Geographical society with radiocarbon C14 dates of 32000-34000 BCE. On the Lena river, the Yana risers are 31000-32000 BCE, and finally the Malta Parking lot on the Angara river is 18000-25000 BCE. There are many more LUP sites on the Lena river, the Yenisei river and they all have a tradition of stone processing called "Makarovsky cultural layer". Among the finds at the sites of this tradition, there are finds made in accordance with the yubetsu technology, most often found in Japan and North-Eastern China. To put it bluntly, the tradition of the LUP "Makarov cultural type" spread throughout Siberia North of lake Baikal, the tradition of the LUP "Kara BOM" Altai, the territories South of lake Baikal, the Mongolian plateau. I think that the first tradition is the population of haplogroup P or ANE, the second is the southern Baikal, Mongolia, generally the steppe zone from Altai, Dzungaria, Mongolia and apparently to Manchuria-this is the C2 population. The place and role of the population of haplogroups N and O in this process is not clear to me yet. Most likely, NO, or at least one N, merged with C2 very early and they carried the common LUP tradition of "Kara BOM".

[Ebizur]

Of course, neither C* nor C2*has been detected yet. But the probability that C separated from F in the middle East is higher than if it happened in East Asia. Apparently the earliest sample from the C2 population is Salkhit Levallois_EUP, 34950-33900 BCE. In the future, the Levallois tradition in the Altai mountains and the Mongolian plateau is transformed into the LUP tradition "Kara BOM". In Siberia, this tradition has common features with the traditions of Kostenki14. On the other hand. Judging by YFull, Tianyuan 38170-36880 BCE, is P1, not K2b. Further in Russia, near Vladivostok, there is an inhabited cave named after the Geographical society with radiocarbon C14 dates of 32000-34000 BCE. On the Lena river, the Yana risers are 31000-32000 BCE, and finally the Malta Parking lot on the Angara river is 18000-25000 BCE. There are many more LUP sites on the Lena river, the Yenisei river and they all have a tradition of stone processing called "Makarovsky cultural layer". Among the finds at the sites of this tradition, there are finds made in accordance with the yubetsu technology, most often found in Japan and North-Eastern China. To put it bluntly, the tradition of the LUP "Makarov cultural type" spread throughout Siberia North of lake Baikal, the tradition of the LUP "Kara BOM" Altai, the territories South of lake Baikal, the Mongolian plateau. I think that the first tradition is the population of haplogroup P or ANE, the second is the southern Baikal, Mongolia, generally the steppe zone from Altai, Dzungaria, Mongolia and apparently to Manchuria-this is the C2 population. The place and role of the population of haplogroups N and O in this process is not clear to me yet. Most likely, NO, or at least one N, merged with C2 very early and they carried the common LUP tradition of "Kara BOM".

YFull currently estimates the TMRCA of C-M130 to be 46,600 [95% CI 44,200 <-> 48,900] ybp and the TMRCA of C2-M217 to be 34,000 [95% CI 31,200 <-> 36,900] ybp.

C2b-L1373, which is sometimes called the northern branch of C2, has an estimated TMRCA of 16,000 [95% CI 14,300 <-> 17,800] ybp, with its most divergent known branch being found with low frequency among ancient and present-day South Americans and possibly among ancient inhabitants of Devil's Gate Cave near the north shore of the Sea of Japan.

C2c-F1067, which is sometimes called the southern branch of C2, has an estimated TMRCA of 33,700 [95% CI 30,900 <-> 36,600] ybp. C2c-F1067 consists of two deeply divergent branches that share only fourteen SNPs in common since the MRCA of all C2-M217 according to YFull. One of these branches, C-CTS4660, is quite rare, and has been observed to date only in China (mostly Han, but also one Dai from Yunnan). The other branch, C-F2613, has an estimated TMRCA of 10,800 [95% CI 9,800 <-> 11,900] ybp and is currently quite common among Han Chinese, Hui, Koreans, Tujia, Miao, Kam, Hani, and several other ethnic groups of southern China and northern Mainland Southeast Asia. C-F2613 is also quite common among Mongols, but this is almost entirely due to the notable frequency among present-day Mongolic speakers (and especially the Barghut-Buryat-Khamnigan cluster of northern Mongolic speakers as well as Dörwöd Kalmyks) of certain branches of the C2c1a1a1-M407 subclade, whose estimated TMRCA is only 4,300 [95% CI 3,500 <-> 5,200] ybp.

The rather high frequency and diversity of C2c-F1067 and very low frequency of C2b-L1373 among Han and Korean populations contrasts starkly with the very high frequency of C2b-L1373 and very low frequency of C2c-F1067(xM407) among Mongolic and Tungusic peoples. Any plausible hypothesis for the origin of C2-M217 should explain how the haplogroup's two primary subclades have come to exhibit almost completely disjunct distributions, with a dividing line running somewhere through the Gobi Desert and Manchuria.

[VladimirTaraskin]

YFull currently estimates the TMRCA of C-M130 to be 46,600 [95% CI 44,200 <-> 48,900] ybp and the TMRCA of C2-M217 to be 34,000 [95% CI 31,200 <-> 36,900] ybp.

C2b-L1373, which is sometimes called the northern branch of C2, has an estimated TMRCA of 16,000 [95% CI 14,300 <-> 17,800] ybp, with its most divergent known branch being found with low frequency among ancient and present-day South Americans and possibly among ancient inhabitants of Devil's Gate Cave near the north shore of the Sea of Japan.

C2c-F1067, which is sometimes called the southern branch of C2, has an estimated TMRCA of 33,700 [95% CI 30,900 <-> 36,600] ybp. C2c-F1067 consists of two deeply divergent branches that share only fourteen SNPs in common since the MRCA of all C2-M217 according to YFull. One of these branches, C-CTS4660, is quite rare, and has been observed to date only in China (mostly Han, but also one Dai from Yunnan). The other branch, C-F2613, has an estimated TMRCA of 10,800 [95% CI 9,800 <-> 11,900] ybp and is currently quite common among Han Chinese, Hui, Koreans, Tujia, Miao, Kam, Hani, and several other ethnic groups of southern China and northern Mainland Southeast Asia. C-F2613 is also quite common among Mongols, but this is almost entirely due to the notable frequency among present-day Mongolic speakers (and especially the Barghut-Buryat-Khamnigan cluster of northern Mongolic speakers as well as Dörwöd Kalmyks) of certain branches of the C2c1a1a1-M407 subclade, whose estimated TMRCA is only 4,300 [95% CI 3,500 <-> 5,200] ybp.

The rather high frequency and diversity of C2c-F1067 and very low frequency of C2b-L1373 among Han and Korean populations contrasts starkly with the very high frequency of C2b-L1373 and very low frequency of C2c-F1067(xM407) among Mongolic and Tungusic peoples. Any plausible hypothesis for the origin of C2-M217 should explain how the haplogroup's two primary subclades have come to exhibit almost completely disjunct distributions, with a dividing line running somewhere through the Gobi Desert and Manchuria.

That's right. That's what I'm talking about. Salkhit is a population of C2-M217, from where the branches diverged. C2-F1067 went South, C2-L1373 remained in place. Judging by the archeology in Devil's Gate Cave C2-L1373 came later than 10000 BCE, i.e. they passed along the Amur river after the Osipovka culture ceased to exist. And what is interesting. The population from the Osipovka culture had cultural ties to Hokkaido, but not to Sakhalin. But the Devil's Gate Cave population, on the contrary, was in closer contact with Sakhalin than with Hokkaido. In this regard, it is very significant that among the indigenous population of Sakhalin, about 20% of C2 - L1373, but there are practically no N lines, while in Japan there are more N lines than C2-L1373.