BAM Files is Available (A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia's Eastern )

[Kristiina]

@ Ebizur

I suggested Japan as the refuge, because you argued that B4c1a proves the origin of B4c1a2 in the Central Plain. I showed you that B4c1a2 or any B4 is not at all frequent in Han Chinese, instead the deepest B4 lines seem to be in Japan and on the Pacific Coast. The real test of any claim is ancient DNA, and now we have N2, N1a2 and N1a1 from Baikal and N1a2a-pre-F1154 from West Mongolia without southern ancestry and N1a1a2-Y23747 from Amur without southern ancestry and the earliest N1b1 from Shandong with mixed ancestry.

In line with his geographic location, Boshan looks like a mixture between Amur, Jumin and Qihe/Atayal without any Tibetan drift.

PC.GIF

Yang et al May 2020 admixture.GIF

[Megalophias]

In India, there is a very basaltic subclades K-Y28299. There is nothing like this in China or in Southeast Asia in General.

There is no basal subclade of K in Europe or Western Siberia. Therefore, we can safely conclude that there was never K2a* there. Except of course there was. So how does the lack of modern basal K2a in China - or the Middle East, or North Africa, or wherever - prove anything?

In fact one of our modern basal K2a* is a Malay from Singapore, and K2-M256*(xK2b-P331, NO-M214) is reported from Indonesia (has anyone seen Y sequences from Batak Toba BTW?)

[Zelto]

The frequency of Y-DNA N-M231 in Japan is currently very low (approx. 1.9% on average), and it seems to be found relatively frequently in parts of that country that are believed to have been exposed to greater prehistoric and protohistoric immigration from continental East Asia. That does not necessarily negate the possibility of an LGM refuge for N-M231 in the Japanese Archipelago, but I don't see any compelling reason to expect the haplogroup to have emerged from that region.

UKY001 (13954ybp, Selenga Terminal culture) had admixture from a Houtaomuga-like population according to Ning et al. This sample belonged to Y-Hg C-F3918, to me this suggests that the earliest Northeast Asians, which contributed admixture to the first Native Americans, were probably not Y-Hg N.

The Neolithic N1a populations mentioned before, Baikal_EN and Houtaomuga, seem to cluster with their roughly contemporary neighboring C populations like Devils Gate, Baikal and Boisman, along with the later Houtaomuga samples.

I think N was a newcomer to Northeast Asia coming from farther south or west after the LGM.

Admittedly this is very speculative.

[VladimirTaraskin]

There is no basal subclade of K in Europe or Western Siberia. Therefore, we can safely conclude that there was never K2a* there. Except of course there was. So how does the lack of modern basal K2a in China - or the Middle East, or North Africa, or wherever - prove anything?

In fact one of our modern basal K2a* is a Malay from Singapore, and K2-M256*(xK2b-P331, NO-M214) is reported from Indonesia (has anyone seen Y sequences from Batak Toba BTW?)

There is NO in Ust-Ishim, if we talk about ancient DNA. In India, it's not just one person. According to YFull, all K2a speak Telugu and reside in the state of Andhra Pradesh. And in General, among the Dravidians, they are almost 20%.

And then you probably focus on the FTDNA tree, but how do they build their tree, for all customers, including those who paid for 37 markers, or only those who paid for Big Y?

[Megalophias]

There is NO in Ust-Ishim, if we talk about ancient DNA. In India, it's not just one person. According to YFull, all K2a speak Telugu and reside in the state of Andhra Pradesh. And in General, among the Dravidians, they are almost 20%.

Ust Ishim is the ONLY person from that place and time - for thousands of years and thousands of kilometres around. Oase-1 from Romania also has K2a. It is not like we have hundreds of Early Upper Palaeolithic samples to choose from.

[VladimirTaraskin]

Ust Ishim is the ONLY person from that place and time - for thousands of years and thousands of kilometres around. Oase-1 from Romania also has K2a. It is not like we have hundreds of Early Upper Palaeolithic samples to choose from.

Is Oase1 K2a? Where is it written? Like the last thing I saw he was K. The fact that Ust-Ishim is one is true, but in those days it is unlikely that the tribes so diverged one in Siberia and the other in Indochina. And the fact that Oase1 is K is more or less logical. LT split from K and also went to the West. Oase1 can be, for example, pre K1. Actually in China and then in Northern China, also by the way one sample, N1b is only found in about 6200 BCE. And this is not K2a, not NO, not N, not N1. All other subclades N2, N1a2, and N1a1 are found on the Northern side of the Altai and Sayan mountains. I think it's obvious that N is actually from the North and N1b is a migrant in Shandong.

[The Saite]

So Gentlemen, did someone further checked the Late Xiongnu individual BUR002 of any E-V22 Downstream? guess we are dealing with a sort of E-FGC2726 under L1250 Here.

[Zelto]

Is Oase1 K2a? Where is it written? Like the last thing I saw he was K. The fact that Ust-Ishim is one is true, but in those days it is unlikely that the tribes so diverged one in Siberia and the other in Indochina. And the fact that Oase1 is K is more or less logical. LT split from K and also went to the West. Oase1 can be, for example, pre K1. Actually in China and then in Northern China, also by the way one sample, N1b is only found in about 6200 BCE. And this is not K2a, not NO, not N, not N1. All other subclades N2, N1a2, and N1a1 are found on the Northern side of the Altai and Sayan mountains. I think it's obvious that N is actually from the North and N1b is a migrant in Shandong.

Megalophias is right, Oase-1 is K2a as per Poznik et al. (2016).
https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3559

There are currently no N samples I am aware of that are older than the Boshan Mountain sample from Shandong (8230ybp). In eastern Siberia we have Yana (31670ybp) who is P, MA1 (24355ybp) who is R, and UKY001 (13954ybp) who is C.

Like I said before, it seems that N1a ventured north into Siberia, sometime after the LGM (circa 14000ybp at the earliest), and various sister lineages expanded in the north Chinese/Siberian Neolithic.

[VladimirTaraskin]

Megalophias is right, Oase-1 is K2a as per Poznik et al. (2016).
https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3559

There are currently no N samples I am aware of that are older than the Boshan Mountain sample from Shandong (8230ybp). In eastern Siberia we have Yana (31670ybp) who is P, MA1 (24355ybp) who is R, and UKY001 (13954ybp) who is C.

Like I said before, it seems that N1a ventured north into Siberia, sometime after the LGM (circa 14000ybp at the earliest), and various sister lineages expanded in the north Chinese/Siberian Neolithic.

Given the fact that N1a and N1b broke up 17800 BP, the discovery of a sample of 8200 BP in Shandong hardly says anything about the homeland of N1. But if N1b of Shandong is considered in conjunction with Houtaomuga_EN2 N1a1-pre Y23747 7500 BP, Fafonovo N1a1 - B187 6500 BP, N1a2 - L666 Shamanka 6700 BP, N2 Fofonovo 5700 BP, then there is no doubt that somewhere nearby is N1a1-L708 10500-7200 BP. The beginning of Baraba culture in Central Siberia 9000 BP. Around this time, the Osipovskaya culture of the Amur river stops. Maybe Okladnikov and Medvedev were right, who saw the origins of flat-bottomed Baraba ceramics in the Osipovka culture on the Amur river.

[Kristiina]

Yes, I agree that the presence of N1b in Shandong 8000 BP proves the origin of N in China as much as the presence of R2a in Ganj Dareh (I1954) Iran 8294-7992 calBCE proves the origin of R in Iran.