Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Origin of CTS4466 in Wales?

  1. #1
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    578
    Sex
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Ethnicity
    Polish/British Isles
    Nationality
    U.S.
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-A9185
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2

    Poland England Ireland Munster

    Origin of CTS4466 in Wales?

    Over at FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results
    "There is the promising potential of Wales as a source from whence the early Irish Type II ancestors migrated to Munster."

    Any other sources for that hypothesis?

    Sources for competing hypotheses to the origin of CTS4466 in Wales?
    YFull: YF14620 (Dante Labs 2018)

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    65
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Irish/Scot/English
    Y-DNA (P)
    FGC11134/ZZ44/BY9002
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1a1

    Ireland Scotland England
    Recent DNA finds FGC11134+ bones found in Ireland show FGC11134 could have been in Ireland and it could be possible it was before CTS4466 was formed.

    Any suggestions that someone knows the origin of CTS4466 is nothing more than complete speculation

    Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

    The oldest date there is about the time FGC11134 was formed so there is even a case to be made that FGC11134 was formed in Ireland.
    Last edited by IanFitzpatrick; 10-27-2020 at 02:52 PM.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to IanFitzpatrick For This Useful Post:

     pmokeefe (10-27-2020)

  4. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    578
    Sex
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Ethnicity
    Polish/British Isles
    Nationality
    U.S.
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-A9185
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2

    Poland England Ireland Munster
    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    Recent DNA finds FGC11134+ bones found in Ireland show FGC11134 could have been in Ireland and it could be possible it was before CTS4466 was formed.

    Any suggestions that someone knows the origin of CTS4466 is nothing more than complete speculation

    Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

    The oldest date there is about the time FGC11134 was formed so there is even a case to be made that FGC11134 was formed in Ireland.
    I tried to find the sources for those without success. The first two evidently appeared in Cassidy's thesis, which is embargoed?

    However some comments about those samples here:
    https://groups.io/g/R1b-CTS4466-Plus...0,2,0,76013284
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 10-27-2020 at 03:44 PM.
    YFull: YF14620 (Dante Labs 2018)

  5. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    11
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post
    Over at FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results
    "There is the promising potential of Wales as a source from whence the early Irish Type II ancestors migrated to Munster."
    I read both the old yahoo and new io CTS4466 FTDNA forums and my take away is that this theory is being increasingly presented as fact based on a lack of understanding of Welsh history. Especially surname development in Ireland vs Wales, but also basic historic population movements between Wales and Ireland, Scotland and the north of England.

    I’m not sure if it’s relevant or “playing the man rather than the ball”, but the FTDNA admin who is the main driver of the ‘out of Wales’ theory either has Welsh ancestry and her husband is CTS4466. Or her father was CTS466 and her husband has Welsh ancestry. Either way I wonder if it’s more wishful thinking than anything?


    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post
    Any other sources for that hypothesis?
    Nope. Because without a lot more testing and a bit of luck it’s unprovable.

    The theory is basically that early branches of CTS4466 have Welsh surnames, so that is an indication of where early CTS4466 developed/stopped off before spreading, some staying in Wales, others to Northern England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and some to Munster.

    For an unknown, never clarified reason the admins seem to think that early CTS4466 would be more likely to have recently arrived in Wales before spreading. I’m not sure if that’s a genetic reason with so little CTS4466 in Wales, or if they are holding onto the “Celtic Invasion” c. 500/100 BC idea.

    The problem is that the “Welsh names” are incredibly small both in names and numbers of testers. The earliest branch off in CTS4466 is A7751 which has Welsh names. Then it’s “brother” S1115 divides into 3 branches, BY23591 with Welsh names, A212 with Scottish, Northern Irish and English names, and FGC84010 which branches into Munster and the Seven Septs of Laois.

    A7751 has very few testers
    Jones (aka son of John)
    Morgan (son of Morcant)
    Roberts (son of Robert)
    Sellars x2 (occupational)

    BY23591 is mainly Roberts, a few Jones’ and one Sturgil

    Surnames in Wales tended to be “son/daughter of”, or incorporate place names or nicknames. It wasn’t until the 1500s that surnames started to become commonplace and didn’t become universal until as late as the 1800s. They aren’t able to be pinned to locations or “clans” within Wales like seems to be the case in Ireland with the Driscolls for instance.

    It's certainly interesting, but the small numbers involved, late development of Welsh surnames and general flow of traffic being Ireland to Wales, Ireland to Scotland, and Scotland to north of England and Wales in early history, rather than Wales to those places, seem to make it hard to prove.
    Last edited by Trevlos21; 10-28-2020 at 07:32 AM.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Trevlos21 For This Useful Post:

     pmokeefe (10-28-2020)

  7. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    11
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post

    Sources for competing hypotheses to the origin of CTS4466 in Wales?
    Not sources, but theories for CTS4466 I’ve seen on the old and new boards include:

    * “Classic” Milesian from Spain
    Breaks down into
    - Descendant of one of Judah’s sons. Often people who believe this think that the prophet Jeremiah took the last King of Israel’s daughter’s from exile in Egypt to Ireland to marry into the line.
    - Scythian, so Pontic Steppe
    - Galicia in Spain
    - That it’s a myth based on a grain of truth and so descended from the Basque people
    - Northern Spain- Concani-, going to the west of Ireland - Gangani on Ptolemy's map- and invading/taking control of a small part of north Wales - “promontory of the Gangani” on Ptolemy's map

    * Wave of migration from Europe
    - Central Europe with the “classic” idea of Celtic spread seems the most popular with the admins
    - From France, especially Brittany
    - Spain/Portugal, so essentially a “Milesian myth is based on a grain of truth” idea
    - Bell Beaker direction of travel

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Trevlos21 For This Useful Post:

     pmokeefe (10-28-2020)

  9. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    11
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by IanFitzpatrick View Post
    Recent DNA finds FGC11134+ bones found in Ireland show FGC11134 could have been in Ireland and it could be possible it was before CTS4466 was formed.

    Any suggestions that someone knows the origin of CTS4466 is nothing more than complete speculation

    Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
    Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

    The oldest date there is about the time FGC11134 was formed so there is even a case to be made that FGC11134 was formed in Ireland.
    I was surprised but the FTDNA admins all seem to dismiss the first two finds out of hand as totally irrelevant to the development of CTS4466. They've said that it's much more likely that those two FGC11134+ individuals had their lines die out and then, much, much later that a FGC11134+>CTS4466 individual came to Ireland and left living descendants today.

    But in that thread posted above, I can't see any real reasoning other than "just because"?
    Last edited by Trevlos21; 10-28-2020 at 07:34 AM.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Trevlos21 For This Useful Post:

     pmokeefe (10-28-2020)

  11. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    65
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Irish/Scot/English
    Y-DNA (P)
    FGC11134/ZZ44/BY9002
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1a1

    Ireland Scotland England
    I think that CTS4466 came from the moon and I have about as much concrete evidence to show it did as anyone else has to back up their theory of the origins.....none.

    If people realized how many CTS4466 men (millions) there are out there and how infinitesimally small the actual sample size of NGS testing for CTS4466 is in comparison, nobody would be making any claims at all.

    There is simply not enough data to make any reasonable assertion, it will become so complicated even when there is enough data.

    Pinning down where exactly the SNP was born 4000 years ago is simply not going to happen..... at the end of the day does it really make much of a difference that it originated in a very small specific area, we know where it probably didn't come from with a relatively high degree of possibility.

    The people back in 2500 BC travelled around much more than we think, they were mobile all over the Isles and probably back to the continent.

    Just go back a read a few threads on the board from years ago to see how wrong the theories were, they were also based on the very small sample of Y-DNA results that were available at the time. After reading a few threads, think about how small the sample size we currently have available to us really is and nobody, with any shred of credibility, would claim to know a single SNP's origins form 4000 years ago.

    It's entertaining to speculate no doubt, but to have any serious argument on this topic is a waste of energy.

    Then, when countered with evidence that FGC11134 was on the island over 4000 years ago and it's defended it with "they left or died and came back" is just a little laughable to be honest. Answer this question, how many generations are there between CTS4466 and FGC11134.......left and came back, died off and more came later.???....points for a great imagination though
    Last edited by IanFitzpatrick; 10-28-2020 at 04:16 PM.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to IanFitzpatrick For This Useful Post:

     pmokeefe (10-28-2020)

Similar Threads

  1. Interesting CTS4466+ Result
    By marosjor in forum CTS4466
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-14-2018, 06:01 PM
  2. R1b-CTS4466 SNP Pack Updated
    By JamesKane in forum CTS4466
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-22-2016, 12:57 AM
  3. Common Ancestor to CTS4466 and L96
    By JamesKane in forum CTS4466
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-03-2014, 05:09 PM
  4. Questions about downstream testing for CTS4466
    By timothyerwin in forum CTS4466
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-05-2014, 01:08 AM
  5. CTS4466 (L21>DF13>CTS4466) & Irish II/South
    By TigerMW in forum CTS4466
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-06-2013, 08:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •