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Thread: Origin of CTS4466 in Wales?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevlos21 View Post
    And in fact there is plenty of evidence of Irish involvement in Wales.

    Ptolemy (150AD) has a map that is possibly based on a 350BCE map in which North Wales (Gwynedd) had the Gangani or Concani in the Lynn Peninsula, and the South West of Ireland also had this group.

    For years historians thought the Concani came from Spain, around the same region that the Milesians where supposed to have come from due to similarities with the names of one of the tribes there. The forbearers of CTS4466 of course claimed decent from the Milesians.

    It's clear that the Peninsula is a colony of SW Ireland rather than the other way round.

    People from Gwynedd are supposed to have migrated to Scotland between the fall of Anglesey to the Romans (c 90AD?) to Rome leaving 350-400AD.

    With Rome leaving Wales "Irish Pirates" (the Uí Liatháin) migrated to Gwynedd and the Lynn Peninsula causing Cunedda (a female line descendant of "Kings" in North West Gwynedd who migrated to Scotland, near Perthshire) to come a "drive them out"- although the "old" irish were allowed to stay - c350AD-450AD.

    The Uí Liatháin incidentally being the same group that Connell Corc (CTS4466) left exile in Scotland (near Perthshire) to return to Munster to defeat to become King of Munster c350-420AD.

    At least one historian also believes that Cunedda was male line CTS4466 (although he doesn't look into genetics) as he puts Cunedda being a descendant of Cian son of Oillil Ollium who is seen as the "father" of CTS4466

    Not tpo mention that South Wales (Dyfed) was ruled by a dynasty that was Irish in the 5th century

    I'm sure there are more too
    Thank you for sharing that information! I believe I have seen the story before, but before getting into genealogy and DNA testing. It certainly seems to be the case that these groups not closely related, but in collaboration with eachother, the Uí Liatháin, Desí, and the Laigin each have left their signatures within the Welsh, Scottish, Manx, and English populations and more.
    I've noticed a Welsh Merrick/Myrick and Caddell Blake family that share some SNPs downstream of R-Z255. Interestingly enough these families ended up returning to Ireland as strangers centuries later. The more I've been seeing this pattern the more it becomes apparent that such events weren't incredibly uncommon. Same goes for the Ireland/Irelan family of Antrim that are also downstream of R-Z255.
    I believe many of the Border reivers and some lowland Scots were certainly of Irish origin.
    Would be interesting to see if any of that family ended up in Scotland during the famine. Just imagine. irishman from the Laigin has a family in the Borders, enters Ireland as strangers centuries later, returns to Scotland during the famine. Maybe returns to Ireland again. Hahaha. Makes for quite a story.

  2. #12
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    In this study the Irish (excluding Northern Ireland) cluster with Orkney while Wales clustered with the English and Scottish.

    The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland
    41598_2017_17124_Fig1_HTML.jpg
    The clustering of individuals with Irish and British ancestry based solely on genetics. Shown are 30 clusters identified by fineStructure from 2,103 Irish and British individuals. The dendrogram (left) shows the tree of clusters inferred by fineStructure and the map (right) shows the geographic origin of 192 Atlas Irish individuals and 1,611 British individuals from the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI) cohort, labelled according to fineStructure cluster membership. Individuals are placed at the average latitude and longitude of either their great-grandparental (Atlas) or grandparental (PoBI) birthplaces. Great Britain is separated into England, Scotland, and Wales. The island of Ireland is split into the four Provinces; Ulster, Connacht, Leinster, and Munster. The outline of Britain was sourced from Global Administrative Areas (2012). GADM database of Global Administrative Areas, version 2.0. www.gadm.org. The outline of Ireland was sourced from Open Street Map Ireland, Copyright OpenStreetMap Contributors, (https://www.openstreetmap.ie/) - data available under the Open Database Licence. The figure was plotted in the statistical software language R46, version 3.4.1, with various packages.
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 08-14-2021 at 10:11 PM.
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  3. #13
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    The samples we know of at the R1b-S7942 level prior to the CTS4466 block are located in Wales and England. I identified this in the old Chromo2 data set, but still don’t put much stock in the DF13 subclades originating in the Isles. Going up two levels in the tree and within 4 generations some of the other branches start showing up on the main continental side of the channel.

    There’s just too much mobility and too little data for anyone to offer up an origin.

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    But if you look at the PoBI sample location data, most of Wales, the English/Welsh border and most of Scotland seem to be un-sampled. Precisely the areas of interest and caused by the restriction of sampling criteria used - or am I miss-reading the publication?

    SMJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMJ View Post
    But if you look at the PoBI sample location data, most of Wales, the English/Welsh border and most of Scotland seem to be un-sampled. Precisely the areas of interest and caused by the restriction of sampling criteria used - or am I miss-reading the publication?

    SMJ
    The claim is unreasonable for the size of the data set collected and the large window of time scale error. The conclusions being drawn from these handful of samples have as much scientific vigor as reading tea leaves. It’s all speculative until we have a much larger set of modern and ancient samples from Western Europe.

    Screen Shot 2021-10-24 at 7.10.21 AM.png

    The sampling of the British Isles versus the main continent just makes these discussions more likely to be wrong than representative of truth.
    Last edited by JamesKane; 10-24-2021 at 12:14 PM.

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