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Thread: A little calculator (one more!) for Europeans with G25 UNSCALED

  1. #91
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    Finn, it's nothing but the most recent update (with pca).
    Rudy, yes I removed all the regional labels. I'm aware that these samples were likely precious for you (and some others), but I had to do it in order to get a readable map. I wanted initially to use Plotly, but for some reason after the last update of my R-packages Plotly doesn't want to work anymore. As I said, I'm not very good at representation topics.
    En North alom, de North venom
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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn, it's nothing but the most recent update (with pca).
    Rudy, yes I removed all the regional labels. I'm aware that these samples were likely precious for you (and some others), but I had to do it in order to get a readable map. I wanted initially to use Plotly, but for some reason after the last update of my R-packages Plotly doesn't want to work anymore. As I said, I'm not very good at representation topics.
    ....the last update, with description was very clear! That's why.

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn, it's nothing but the most recent update (with pca).
    Rudy, yes I removed all the regional labels. I'm aware that these samples were likely precious for you (and some others), but I had to do it in order to get a readable map. I wanted initially to use Plotly, but for some reason after the last update of my R-packages Plotly doesn't want to work anymore. As I said, I'm not very good at representation topics.
    It's okay, it doesn't make much of a difference which ones they were anyway. Besides, as you said, since the model lacks certain components that might be relevant for southern Europe, it makes our plotting structure less important
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

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  6. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    It's okay, it doesn't make much of a difference which ones they were anyway. Besides, as you said, since the model lacks certain components that might be relevant for southern Europe, it makes our plotting structure less important
    To be honest, I wasn't expecting anything really great. I no longer believe in the possibility of extracting from the G25 a panel of references that would give a fairly faithful model for all of Europe, and hardly more for Western Europe. If the differences are slight, they nevertheless exist, and have their sources at each period of the formation of populations, from the Neolithic period (Cardial vs LBK for example) to modern times with phenomena of genetic drift which escape historical analysis but have brought their share of diversification. No, we are doomed to simplify, and it would be illusory in my opinion to believe that we can solve the problem by multiplying the references. More references inevitably mean more statistical fluctuation.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  8. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    To be honest, I wasn't expecting anything really great. I no longer believe in the possibility of extracting from the G25 a panel of references that would give a fairly faithful model for all of Europe, and hardly more for Western Europe. If the differences are slight, they nevertheless exist, and have their sources at each period of the formation of populations, from the Neolithic period (Cardial vs LBK for example) to modern times with phenomena of genetic drift which escape historical analysis but have brought their share of diversification. No, we are doomed to simplify, and it would be illusory in my opinion to believe that we can solve the problem by multiplying the references. More references inevitably mean more statistical fluctuation.
    You're right, that's why I never bother trying to make models for all of Europe, I really just stick to models for regions, particular Iberia because that's what's the most relevant for me. I'll expand my interest to France and nearby regions once we have appropriate pre-modern (IA/Roman/Early_Medieval) samples
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
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    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

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  10. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    To be honest, I wasn't expecting anything really great. I no longer believe in the possibility of extracting from the G25 a panel of references that would give a fairly faithful model for all of Europe, and hardly more for Western Europe. If the differences are slight, they nevertheless exist, and have their sources at each period of the formation of populations, from the Neolithic period (Cardial vs LBK for example) to modern times with phenomena of genetic drift which escape historical analysis but have brought their share of diversification. No, we are doomed to simplify, and it would be illusory in my opinion to believe that we can solve the problem by multiplying the references. More references inevitably mean more statistical fluctuation.
    I don't think that genetic drift as such has to escape historical analysis it would be a fine thing if genetic drift becomes part of historical analysis! Of course they are partial random and in that sense beneath the radar.

    But:
    Genetic drift can have major effects when a population is sharply reduced in size by a natural disaster (bottleneck effect) or when a small group splits off from the main population to found a colony (founder effect).
    (khan). We can detect disasters and we also can detect split offs (colonies) and of course migrations....


    Specific for the NW case I can underline your conclusion of yesterday that it's a mess but that is the reality.

    I guess the genetic structure is also very much interwoven in the NW European area (all muted Beakers

    Besides that it's, like Ruderico said (last week or so) we currently don't have the tools to do the hair cutting job. Nevertheless how advanced they already are.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-31-2020 at 09:55 AM.

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  12. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    You're right, that's why I never bother trying to make models for all of Europe, I really just stick to models for regions, particular Iberia because that's what's the most relevant for me. I'll expand my interest to France and nearby regions once we have appropriate pre-modern (IA/Roman/Early_Medieval) samples
    add.

    I guess that a model is mimicry, it represents reality but is not reality itself.

    So this means indisputable loss of information, it can't project all factors. So this loss can in the endeffect be crucial....(see the polls for the elections in the US

    No matter how sophisticated, fine-tuned and even based on fuzzy logica (like umap to me) and admitted through this the info loss is getting lower and lower, but it will never reach zero! Because that would mean we would blow up the model and model and reality are one.

    Then we have reached the limits of science.....

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  14. #98
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    That's the case for all models in all branches of science, we're always simplifying things and losing information in the process, which in turn gives us the ability to better comprehend and create things we would otherwise not be able to. Models are a simplification of reality. The key is to not lose too much information as to make the model invalid. However that's something very hard, or impossible, to assess with the tools we commonly use here (G25 + Monte Carlo) which is why we should take all models with a grain of salt
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

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  16. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    That's the case for all models in all branches of science, we're always simplifying things and losing information in the process, which in turn gives us the ability to better comprehend and create things we would otherwise not be able to. Models are a simplification of reality. The key is to not lose too much information as to make the model invalid. However that's something very hard, or impossible, to assess with the tools we commonly use here (G25 + Monte Carlo) which is why we should take all models with a grain of salt
    Agree Ruderico! Nice faux pas, Monte Carlo I hope it's more than rien na va plus !

    But I guess that especially NW Europe with the haircutting differences this makes it even harder....

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