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Thread: What is your theory regarding the origins of Greeks?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    We can deduce that proto-Greeks or early Greeks during their everyday life used to be armed with daggers or similar weapons based on Thucydides account and traces of that tradition still survive in Crete. (Greek gun laws are not really enforced in Crete).
    Didn't free men in most metal age societies had daggers? I'm not sure that's specific enough.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    According to the literature there are similarities between Usatovo daggers, Early Cycladic II and III and Troy II.

    2/3 of Usatovo R1a-Z93 samples are near the seashore and they could have had some maritime knowledge.

    There are many conflicting narratives that could explain these similarities or contacts. Either way, that should be taken into account, especially by those who follow Anthony and the like.

    We can deduce that proto-Greeks or early Greeks during their everyday life used to be armed with daggers or similar weapons based on Thucydides account and traces of that tradition still survive in Crete. (Greek gun laws are not really enforced in Crete).
    I dont know a lot about the use of maritime travel in the Black Sea area in the chalcolithic and early bronze age. I vaguely remember that it is widely thought that there was likely a very early trade node or port at Varna that likely crossed over the NW Black Sea to somewhere like Crimea or adjacent parts of Ukraine. I know nothing about the navigational issues of the Black Sea though. All I can guess is that the good spots for ports then were likely not that different from the ones chosen by the much later Greek Pontic colonists. I've always wondered about very early sea travel in the area because it would superficially seem to me that the large number of rivers flowing southwards through the Ukraine and south Russia would be an impediment to travel. As for Usatovo, I think its too early to correlate with Greek's branching off position in the IE language tree. Greek seems to me like a language that was still on the steppe in a zone where it could have links with various languages in eastern Europe in the era 2800-2500BC. It doesnt look like a early break off like Afansievo to the east c. 3200BC or the branches that would later lead to Germanic or Celto-Italic which must both be linked to a subset of corded ware spread like lightening north-west c. 2900-2800BC. It looks like a branch that remained fairly central and able to be connected somehow to Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian till a somewhat late date. The only place that looks possible if you set a terminus ante quem date of 1700BC for proto-Greek is the Pontic steppes in the era 2700BC-1700BC and arguably the most likely part of that is 2500BC-2200BC. I think the best fit for both Greek and Armenian lie in the west and east variants of Catacomb c. 2800-2200BC.

    Babyno is interesting in that it probably arose in the Catacomb subset north of Azov c. 2200BC when there was an enormous and unexpected connection made with a chunk of central Europe for a century or two apparently via the sub-carpathian epi-cordial groups and also the Danube. This connection later then fades away c. 2000-1700BC. It appears to be have extended as far west and south as the Danubian SE?? corner of Romania. This brief but intense phase of western contact c. 2200-2000BC and the anthropological suggestion that the people seemed to have a major epi-CW input in them does make me wonder if this rather odd phenomenon of Babyno is somehow linked to Albanian which is after all often branched with Germanic in IE trees. Maybe Babyno (via the Babyno presence in Danubian Romania) is ancestral to the Albanians and they really are kind of the odd man out of the Balkans in that they had a significant sub carpathian epi-CW ancestry which is perhaps reflected in its odd placement in the branching with Germanic in some models. The fact other models are not consistent may be down the somewhat oddball phenomenon that is Babyno - a Catacomb base in the Don-Dniester zone with a major input from sub carpathian CW to the NW and a huge degree of influence from central Europe via that and a Danubian route followed by a late period where those contacts end.

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    Finally Srubnaya c. 1700BC has no presence in the Balkans and indeed doesnt seem to have made it to the westernmost end of the steppes to the west of the Dnieper. I dont think it has any role in the ethno-linguistic identity of the Balkans or even the westernmost steppes. It looks to me like a very different fish from either Catacomb or Babyno and linked to the Indo-Iranian associated cultures to the north and east. Other than a shunting effect perhaps (though I am not sure of the date of the Babyno presence on the Danube in Romania = its presence there could predate the existence of the Timber grave culture to the east) I think timber grave had no input into the various Balkans pre-roman pre-slavic pre-Iranian languages.

    PS- it does make me wonder where the Slavic branch or its ancestor to be more accurate was hiding in this era. Its clearly not directly from the southern Yamnaya steppe stream. It must be rather linked to some sort of CW derived group located somewhere in the middle to upper reaches of the rivers between the Dniester, Dnieper and Pripit. That is an area that the south-easternmost thrust of CW arrived into and bordered the westernmost part of the Babyno culture in the epiCW phase c. 2200BC. It also may have been one part of the go-betweens between the Babyno culture and contacts stretching further west deep into the heart of central Europe seen in early Babyno c. 2200-2000BC or so. Makes me wonder if the most likely location of the Balto-Slavs was the Trzciniec culture circle in the area and prior to that the late epi CW groups it arose from.
    Last edited by alan; 12-02-2020 at 12:17 AM.

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  7. #54
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    There was a steppe_mlba R1a-z93 sample dated to around 1800 bc found in Bulgaria, so Srubnayans or related (perhaps KMK) peoples definitely ventured as far west as the Balkans. That is different from mass settlements and an expansion of material cultures of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I dont know a lot about the use of maritime travel in the Black Sea area in the chalcolithic and early bronze age. I vaguely remember that it is widely thought that there was likely a very early trade node or port at Varna that likely crossed over the NW Black Sea to somewhere like Crimea or adjacent parts of Ukraine. I know nothing about the navigational issues of the Black Sea though. All I can guess is that the good spots for ports then were likely not that different from the ones chosen by the much later Greek Pontic colonists. I've always wondered about very early sea travel in the area because it would superficially seem to me that the large number of rivers flowing southwards through the Ukraine and south Russia would be an impediment to travel. As for Usatovo, I think its too early to correlate with Greek's branching off position in the IE language tree. Greek seems to me like a language that was still on the steppe in a zone where it could have links with various languages in eastern Europe in the era 2800-2500BC. It doesnt look like a early break off like Afansievo to the east c. 3200BC or the branches that would later lead to Germanic or Celto-Italic which must both be linked to a subset of corded ware spread like lightening north-west c. 2900-2800BC. It looks like a branch that remained fairly central and able to be connected somehow to Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian till a somewhat late date. The only place that looks possible if you set a terminus ante quem date of 1700BC for proto-Greek is the Pontic steppes in the era 2700BC-1700BC and arguably the most likely part of that is 2500BC-2200BC. I think the best fit for both Greek and Armenian lie in the west and east variants of Catacomb c. 2800-2200BC.

    Babyno is interesting in that it probably arose in the Catacomb subset north of Azov c. 2200BC when there was an enormous and unexpected connection made with a chunk of central Europe for a century or two apparently via the sub-carpathian epi-cordial groups and also the Danube. This connection later then fades away c. 2000-1700BC. It appears to be have extended as far west and south as the Danubian SE?? corner of Romania. This brief but intense phase of western contact c. 2200-2000BC and the anthropological suggestion that the people seemed to have a major epi-CW input in them does make me wonder if this rather odd phenomenon of Babyno is somehow linked to Albanian which is after all often branched with Germanic in IE trees. Maybe Babyno (via the Babyno presence in Danubian Romania) is ancestral to the Albanians and they really are kind of the odd man out of the Balkans in that they had a significant sub carpathian epi-CW ancestry which is perhaps reflected in its odd placement in the branching with Germanic in some models. The fact other models are not consistent may be down the somewhat oddball phenomenon that is Babyno - a Catacomb base in the Don-Dniester zone with a major input from sub carpathian CW to the NW and a huge degree of influence from central Europe via that and a Danubian route followed by a late period where those contacts end.

    There was an article Davidki posted (I think, I don't know if he noticed it) that speculated they were trading on longboats?? Dugout canoes?? Either way, possible contacts of Usatovo and the Aegean and Troy should be taken into account. They may be important, if not for Greeks, for peoples like the Karians, for example? (Thucidides says, based on burial practices that the 'pre-Greek' inhabitants of the Aegean were Karians and 'Phoenicians'. Would he consider that Cycladic civilization to have been Karian? Maybe.).

    I was never a proponent of the steppes hypothesis personally, so I can't follow your reasoning.
    But if I had to consider a steppes origin for Greek or 'Greco-Aryan' I would consider Abashevo. (Currently I think they were speaking a distinct lost 'Greco-Aryan' language that influenced proto-Uralic.)

    Certainly it would be interesting to find if Abashevo is Fatyanovo-like or has other influences. There are some Balkan like haplogroups there and around there, which may be the result of more recent movements but it would be nice to know what really happened there.

    The region where Abashevo culture is placed is interesting because imo it is close to where Herodotus had placed the Gelonians (according to him "formely Helllenes", speaking "half Greek - half Scythian" who had left their trading posts in the Black Sea to settle among the 'Budini' (Now the questions are: Had this population really existed? If they had existed what language could they have been speaking? Basically what language could have appeared to Herodotus or his source as "half Greek - half Scythian" and were they really the result of people moving from the trading posts around the Black sea towards the forrest steppe and if yes, when exactly?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lyonnist View Post
    The original Greek population is I Y-DNA. Other peoples arrived soon after, such as G2a Y-DNA which brought agriculture. Greece is a genetic mix.
    Are you talking pre-Neolithic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    There is an ongoing reexamination of radiocarbon estimates for steppe cultures and their regional subsets. A lot of the dates you will see on general or older sources are no longer valid. This work is pretty cutting edge and often from just the last 2 or 3 years. I am not an expert on steppe cultures. Its a very very complex area that you could spend many thousands of reading hours on. One thing I am not terribly sure of is the most reliable dating for the end of the Pontic steppes and Balkans Catacomb cultures. I assume it ends around 2200BC when Babyno culture - a culture based on a Catacomb base but also claimed to be anthropolgically like eastern epi-CW - appears and dominates the entire western steppes from 2200 until Srubnya (timber grave) shows up about 4-500 years later. I dont think Babyno ever extended beyond the steppes from what I can gather on maps though I did see on unsubstantiated claim it was pushed into the Balkans by Srubnya. I cant find anything that backs that up. It had very wide contacts with east central Europe and the Caucuses and epi CW so it ma be a mixed group involving CW derived and well as Catacomb elements.

    Most sources date Srubnya to after 1800BC. I note this recent paper says that contrary to some claims, there are no certain Srubnaya graves in the 'Old Europe'. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...and_Chronology
    On the best map I could find, Srubnaya didnt even reached the westernmost end of the Euro steppes. So, it doesnt look like a factor in Balkans history unless perhaps a role in shunting Babyano westwards into the Balkans - but cant find any reliable source citing evidence of this).

    My own feeling is Greek looks like it had to emerge from a Catacomb (or Babyno) group c. 2500-1800BC and as I cant find any good literature indicating Babyno in the Balkans I think the Catacomb culture seen in Danubian southern Romania at some point after 2500BC (doesnt seem well dated - but must be 2500-2200BC) looks the best bet. How, via what intermediate stepping stones, when and in what guise they infiltrate Greece is unclear but I would feel it is linked to the c. 2200BC collapse in Greece where barrows started to be built (apparently deliberately) over some of the settlements of the recently collapsed Helladic I civilisation - a phenomenon noted in Kurgans further north too.

    Anyway that's my best shot guys. I'll shut up now LOL
    Very interesting comments. Could you please point to any maps or literature showing where these kurgans are in Greece?
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    PS- it does make me wonder where the Slavic branch or its ancestor to be more accurate was hiding in this era. Its clearly not directly from the southern Yamnaya steppe stream. It must be rather linked to some sort of CW derived group located somewhere in the middle to upper reaches of the rivers between the Dniester, Dnieper and Pripit. That is an area that the south-easternmost thrust of CW arrived into and bordered the westernmost part of the Babyno culture in the epiCW phase c. 2200BC. It also may have been one part of the go-betweens between the Babyno culture and contacts stretching further west deep into the heart of central Europe seen in early Babyno c. 2200-2000BC or so. Makes me wonder if the most likely location of the Balto-Slavs was the Trzciniec culture circle in the area and prior to that the late epi CW groups it arose from.
    From what I gathered, the Černoles/Chernoles culture is hard to ignore if talking about early (Balto-) Slavs, the problem is rather where to place it. But the connections are there to the Carpathian (Proto-Thracian?) and the North Pontic sphere (pre-Cimmerians/pre-Scythian? steppe people), with Slavs in between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hando View Post
    Very interesting comments. Could you please point to any maps or literature showing where these kurgans are in Greece?
    Thanks
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4..._act_58_1_3462

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    Are you talking pre-Neolithic?
    Yes I believe he is. The thread is confusing because it mixes Greek language with various layers of people who must have settled in the southern Balkans and Greek islands. I'd say G-M406 was a staple of all Greek periods since the Neolithic, but probably not related to the later Greek language.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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