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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Just a reminder for people who are not familiar with Germany. There are 4 clusters in Germany which are different from one another.

    Cluster ''1'' is Western German the most widespread cluster. It stretches all over Central-Northern Germany into Alsace-Lorraine , Bavaria, Switzerland, Western Austria and Northeastern Italy. It totally correlates with a linguistic reality which is the High German language that is spread in and around.
    Its the southern most shifted cluster and typically occupies Halsttat and La Tene territories.

    Cluster ''2'' is Eastern German. This cluster can score as high as 50% Slavic. It stretches from NE Holstein down to Saxony Anhalt and Czechia. Those regions were Slavic (Wendic/Sorb) and conquered by Germans and Dutch people in the Middle Age.

    Cluster ''3'' is NW Germany. It is the closest to Dutch populations.

    Cluster ''4'' is Schleswig-Holstein. It is the most Scandinavian shifted cluster and was for a long time a part of the kingdom of Denmark. The region is home to Germanized Danes, Low Saxons and a group of northern Frisians.
    I'm pretty sure cluster 3 and 4 are extremely close to one another.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Just a reminder for people who are not familiar with Germany. There are 4 clusters in Germany which are different from one another.

    Cluster ''1'' is Western German the most widespread cluster. It stretches all over Central-Northern Germany into Alsace-Lorraine , Bavaria, Switzerland, Western Austria and Northeastern Italy. It totally correlates with a linguistic reality which is the High German language that is spread in and around.
    Its the southern most shifted cluster and typically occupies Halsttat and La Tene territories.

    Cluster ''2'' is Eastern German. This cluster can score as high as 50% Slavic. It stretches from NE Holstein down to Saxony Anhalt and Czechia. Those regions were Slavic (Wendic/Sorb) and conquered by Germans and Dutch people in the Middle Age.

    Cluster ''3'' is NW Germany. It is the closest to Dutch populations.

    Cluster ''4'' is Schleswig-Holstein. It is the most Scandinavian shifted cluster and was for a long time a part of the kingdom of Denmark. The region is home to Germanized Danes, Low Saxons and a group of northern Frisians.
    Where is this from? What evidence is there for these clusters?
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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    And the Croatian Iron age sample on G25 is closest to modern north Italians.

    Distance to: HRV_IA:I3313
    my closest BC matches are

    R1 ...............Liburnian woman, found in Liburnian Marche( Italy )North Picene
    I3313 ..............Dalmatian Illyrian
    I5017 ............2250BC bavarian

    From someone on this site


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Eatern Hallstatt was completely transformed by these Eastern groups and is most likely associated with Illyrians, as well as Thracians, possibly with a Cimmerian and Scythian influenced elite in some regions. We hae depictions of riders and fighters from both spheres of Hallstatt, and on some objects, unfortunately I don't have the exact source right now, but remember it very well, the Hallstatt artists were depicting confronting armies on a piece of bronze art. With West Hallstatt on the left, East Hallstatt, steppic warriors on the right. They had completely different styles, gear and weaponry and the Eastern one was completely "old steppic", for example without metal helmets and battle axes or war hammers. So Hallstatt is not even Hallstatt at all, especially early time Eastern groups might be very, very different from the latest Western ones.

    I'd say that West Hallstatt was almost taken into this Eastern sphere, but consolidated its own new fusion of the old and new ways, very much similar to Jastorf, which too was almost taken over by Proto-Celts, but stabilised and consolidated its own ways which led to the main Germanic Iron Age culture. The groups to the West, on the other hand, probably also because they were already closer to the Western Hallstatt sphere anyway, were on the continent largely incorporated, completely so with La Tène, which in turn transformed Germanics once more after an initial phase of isolation. But again without affecting theri ethnolinguistic identity, similar to the Roman influences, yet even more important initially.
    Its sometimes hard to tell how far the influence was going. Like were there really foreign elites on top in some regions of the Hallstatt culture, or was it just local elites taking in specialists, traders, allies and warriors they needed to develop their own reign? That's very hard to tell, probably even with genetic results. The transitions from one stage to another might be very fluent.

    Yes, from the 400 century BC a reversed direction, the Celtic expansion mainly towards Southeast Europe, from approx. 275 BC to today's Turkey the area is still named after them Galata (Celtic mercenaries), in any case the Celts had extensive trade contacts and an enormous expansion and that massive in the Iron Age, that is, they took on many cultural influences, such as from the Mediterranean world (Greeks, Romans, Etruscans ..) and of course from the Balkans and the steppe area of ​​the Black Sea region. An example I like to take is the chariot, this creative invention from the Sintashta culture was still used by the Celts in Europe during the Iron Age (more prestige than use / The Essedum), the best example being Queen Boudica from Britain
    and on the other hand with the Persians and Indian princes on the subcontinent of course after the Battle of Kadesh (Bronze Age) the chariot for military service was a discontinued model and no longer of tactical use, but at the beginning it pushed the development forward for expanding acts of war and revenue of large areas but the cavalry had a greater historical / military significance than the "chariot", but has not lost its symbolic power for some cultures until today.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
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    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
    Polish: 27.8%
    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  9. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Just a reminder for people who are not familiar with Germany. There are 4 clusters in Germany which are different from one another.

    Cluster ''1'' is Western German the most widespread cluster. It stretches all over Central-Northern Germany into Alsace-Lorraine , Bavaria, Switzerland, Western Austria and Northeastern Italy. It totally correlates with a linguistic reality which is the High German language that is spread in and around.
    Its the southern most shifted cluster and typically occupies Halsttat and La Tene territories.

    Cluster ''2'' is Eastern German. This cluster can score as high as 50% Slavic. It stretches from NE Holstein down to Saxony Anhalt and Czechia. Those regions were Slavic (Wendic/Sorb) and conquered by Germans and Dutch people in the Middle Age.

    Cluster ''3'' is NW Germany. It is the closest to Dutch populations.

    Cluster ''4'' is Schleswig-Holstein. It is the most Scandinavian shifted cluster and was for a long time a part of the kingdom of Denmark. The region is home to Germanized Danes, Low Saxons and a group of northern Frisians.
    I presume Eastern Austria is in Cluster 2.

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  11. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Just a reminder for people who are not familiar with Germany. There are 4 clusters in Germany which are different from one another.

    Cluster ''1'' is Western German the most widespread cluster. It stretches all over Central-Northern Germany into Alsace-Lorraine , Bavaria, Switzerland, Western Austria and Northeastern Italy. It totally correlates with a linguistic reality which is the High German language that is spread in and around.
    Its the southern most shifted cluster and typically occupies Halsttat and La Tene territories.

    Cluster ''2'' is Eastern German. This cluster can score as high as 50% Slavic. It stretches from NE Holstein down to Saxony Anhalt and Czechia. Those regions were Slavic (Wendic/Sorb) and conquered by Germans and Dutch people in the Middle Age.

    Cluster ''3'' is NW Germany. It is the closest to Dutch populations.

    Cluster ''4'' is Schleswig-Holstein. It is the most Scandinavian shifted cluster and was for a long time a part of the kingdom of Denmark. The region is home to Germanized Danes, Low Saxons and a group of northern Frisians.
    Same question as Ryukendo. Where does this come from?
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    I presume Eastern Austria is in Cluster 2.
    I think the Austrians are somewhere between something so proportions about half Slavic and Celto-Germanic, I think as far as autosomal is concerned, but we have some experts here who better explain or explain what the Y-DNA is, both are dominant in Austria R1a (Z280 / M458) and R1b (S21 U106) and especially among the Tyroleans, the Neolithic haplogroup Y-DNA G2a (G-P15) occurs more frequently
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
    Polish: 27.8%
    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  15. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Yes, from the 400 century BC a reversed direction, the Celtic expansion mainly towards Southeast Europe, from approx. 275 BC to today's Turkey the area is still named after them Galata (Celtic mercenaries), in any case the Celts had extensive trade contacts and an enormous expansion and that massive in the Iron Age, that is, they took on many cultural influences, such as from the Mediterranean world (Greeks, Romans, Etruscans ..) and of course from the Balkans and the steppe area of ​​the Black Sea region. An example I like to take is the chariot, this creative invention from the Sintashta culture was still used by the Celts in Europe during the Iron Age (more prestige than use / The Essedum), the best example being Queen Boudica from Britain
    and on the other hand with the Persians and Indian princes on the subcontinent of course after the Battle of Kadesh (Bronze Age) the chariot for military service was a discontinued model and no longer of tactical use, but at the beginning it pushed the development forward for expanding acts of war and revenue of large areas but the cavalry had a greater historical / military significance than the "chariot", but has not lost its symbolic power for some cultures until today.
    The shift from Hallstatt to La Tene is highly important, because it marks the transition from a caste like elite and princely culture, to a more popular and broader free warrior culture. Both the aristocratic and the free warrior culture got influenced by Greek ideas. You can see the depictions of the core Hallstatt elite, in long, tunic like robes, their heads and faces were completely shaven, they wore strange hats, which resemble Greek role models, they drink, play and fight like Greeks, make "symposia"-like meetings. In the art, they copy Greek styles and use concrete depictions. Their women carry goods in the "Mediterranean" fashion on the head in large pottery and so on. Its totally different from the very Eastern group, the steppe or any "classical Barbarians" before or later. Its like they copied Greeks and Etruscans in a rather crude and sometimes clumsy, sometimes in a very own, stylish and elaborated way.
    And this largely ends with La Tene, when suddenly everything shifts towards a more "Scythian" style. They wear longer hair, beards (especially moustaches), almost exclusively trousers in the Scythian way, no chariots any more, but only horse riding (started in Hallstatt latest of course, but then it became final), the culture became more broadly based, less elitist, and the art becomes abstract, with the famous animal style, which reaches Germanics and survives among those up into Medieval and Viking times.

    Politically and socially there was between Hallstatt and La Tene a revolution, probably even with some uprisings and murdered elites, but there was also after the initial Iron Age influences a second steppe impact, this time coming clearly from Scythians (Cimmerians were no more anyway and Daco-Thracians no longer that infuential, but could have been the transmitters). The Greek role models were still there, but I'd say in many ways it was an emancipation from the old world and teachers. How direct the Scythian influence was is another interesting question.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-29-2020 at 10:00 AM.

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  17. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The shift from Hallstatt to La Tene is highly important, because it marks the transition from a caste like elite and princely culture, to a more popular and broader free warrior culture. Both the aristocratic and the free warrior culture got influenced by Greek ideas. You can see the depictions of the core Hallstatt elite, in long, tunic like robes, their heads and faces were completely shaven, they wore strange hats, which resemble Greek role models, they drink, play and fight like Greeks, make "symposia"-like meetings. In the art, they copy Greek styles and use concrete depictions. Their women carry goods in the "Mediterranean" fashion on the head in large pottery and so on. Its totally different from the very Eastern group, the steppe or any "classical Barbarians" before or later. Its like they copied Greeks and Etruscans in a rather crude and sometimes clumsy, sometimes in a very own, stylish and elaborated way.
    And this largely ends with La Tene, when suddenly everything shifts towards a more "Scythian" style. They wear longer hair, beards (especially moustaches), almost exclusively trousers in the Scythian way, no chariots any more, but only horse riding (started in Hallstatt latest of course, but then it became final), the culture became more broadly based, less elitist, and the art becomes abstract, with the famous animal style, which reaches Germanics and survives among those up into Medieval and Viking times.

    Politically and socially there was between Hallstatt and La Tene a revolution, probably even with some uprisings and murdered elites, but there was also after the initial Iron Age influences a second steppe impact, this time coming clearly from Scythians (Cimmerians were no more anyway and Daco-Thracians no longer that infuential, but could have been the transmitters). The Greek role models were still there, but I'd say in many ways it was an emancipation from the old world and teachers. How direct the Scythian influence was is another interesting question.
    Thank you, that is an interesting point of view. Do you have pictures or a relief image with "barbarians" with tunics and shaved, which seems very unusual to me, I thought more of material cultural influence like ceramics, weapons .. But the Celts themselves had fashion very big still as in the example of the Bracae
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
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    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  19. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Thank you, that is an interesting point of view. Do you have pictures or a relief image with "barbarians" with tunics and shaved, which seems very unusual to me, I thought more of material cultural influence like ceramics, weapons .. But the Celts themselves had fashion very big still as in the example of the Bracae
    I'm not even sure all of these Hallstatt elites were actual Celts, I'm absolutely sure about La Tene for the most part, probably with small regional and transitional exceptions, but not before. However, there are plenty of such images especially in the situla-art. You see shaved head and faces, long tunics, flutes and drinking rituals in the Greek fashion:




    I'm pretty sure the Hallstatt princes had some Greeks, Etruscans and others from the South on their courts, in the "Fürstensitz", regardless of what they were themselves (early Celts, mixed, foreign elite).

    The Vace situla is particularly interesting and beautiful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Va%C4%8De_Situla

    Shaved heads and faces, long tunics, Greek hats:


    Chariot races in the Greek and Eastern fashion (not suitable for the Alpine zone for the most part other than representation):


    Balkan-Greek style rider:


    Hoplite style warriors:


    They even called Greek architects to Germany, where they built for the wet and cold climate unsuitable mud brick constructions. They just wanted to bring in the whole package and follow their Southern role models.

    Everything like a spitting image of Greek and Etruscan patterns. This changes fundamentally with the La Tene revolution, which brought a very different culture, worldview, religion - everything. At least for some regions surely ethnic change as well, but details need to be investigated by ancient DNA. Doesn't have to mean big, in many cases, especially in the West, only very modest shifts and nuances. I would check primarily for yDNA changes in the centres. The periphery won't be affected as much anyway, because this is more about elite shifts rather than complete folk replacements, unlike in the Neolithic and EBA.

    La Tene can't be underestimated, because even for Germanics the very late adoption of La Tene ideas and organisation led to the Germanic higher culture and spread. This is highly important, it was, like the Mediterranean way of a life, a complete package on a high cultural level. Before Germanics adopted it, they were "backward tribal people", after they adopted it, they began to replace Celts, Romans, Sarmatians and others in a row. This is no coincidence, this gave them the boost they needed, as it helped the Celts to expand before, in their high phase, before they lost to the Romans.

    Disclaimer: Not all of these images are from the Western Hallstatt, more Celtic shifted sphere, so could represent Illyrians in particular. But largely the same pattern can be observed elsewhere in the core Hallstatt sphere.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-29-2020 at 12:59 PM.

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